From Small Town to Big Tech Success with Janetta Dunbar | Episode 002

Episode Summary:
In this episode of Career Downloads, Manuel Martinez sits down with Janetta Dunbar, a multi-talented professional with a diverse background. Janetta shares her inspiring journey from growing up near Fort Worth, Texas, to becoming a successful entrepreneur and tech professional in Las Vegas. With experiences ranging from serving in the Army to working as a TV technical director, Janetta provides valuable insights into career transitions, the importance of networking, and overcoming challenges in the tech industry.

Host: Manuel Martinez
Guest: Janetta Dunbar

Key Topics:
– Early life and education.
– College experiences and switching declared majors.
– Navigating career changes and expectations.
– Starting a family and a home business.
– Getting back into tech after learning about new technologies
– Career transitions and growth
– Personal insights and advice

Memorable Quotes:
“You quit before you quit, right? A lot of times, you quit in your head before you actually leave.”

“Networking is huge. Schools don’t teach the power of it, but it’s often who you know that gets you in the door.”

“I got a call from a recruiter who told me I was grossly underpaid.”

Connect with Us:
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Tune in next week for another episode of Career Downloads where we explore more inspiring career journeys and professional growth stories. Don’t forget to subscribe, rate and review.

Manuel: Welcome, everybody, to another episode of Career Downloads. I have a very special guest today. So this is Janetta Dunbar, and I’m going to give you a quick introduction on her. So she is a wife, a mother, an athlete, an entrepreneur. She was a TV technical director, and she’s also an Army veteran. Apart from that, she was probably the first one that taught Beyonce how to break the internet. So with that, I have Janetta Dunbar.

Janetta: Hi. Hey, Manny.

Manuel: So I appreciate you.

Janetta: Good to hang with you, man.

Manuel: Yeah, it’s been a while. So we haven’t seen each other in person in a while.

Janetta: Yeah, maybe a year or something.

Manuel: It’s probably, yeah.

Janetta: No, no, December. It was Christmas time.

Manuel: Okay. Yeah. So it’s only been a few months.

Janetta: Yeah.

Manuel: It just feels like longer.

Janetta: Yeah.

Manuel: So I’m very excited to kind of have you on here and dig into your career, your background, skills that you’ve picked up. So I know some of them, but I’m sure they’re just like in the conversation we had probably about a week ago, I learned additional things that I didn’t know. So I’m pretty excited. So to start off, just kind of give me a general idea of kind of where you grew up.

Janetta: Ah, I grew up in Texas. Yes. Fort Worth. So I was about 30 minutes from Dallas.

Manuel: Okay.

Janetta: So it was a medium-sized town, but the area I grew up, everybody kind of knew everybody. And the parents of the kids who went to the high school there, their grandparents went to high school there, that kind of thing, it’s kind of small town-y.

Manuel: Small town-y.

Janetta: Yeah.

Manuel: Got it. And then eventually, obviously, you moved out of there and did keep up with the generational town.

Janetta: Nah, no, no.

Manuel: That’s not for you.

Janetta: Well, you know, in my opinion, right, Texas people are special. They think Texas is everything. And so did I. I grew up that way. And I never thought I would leave, but then my dad got a job. He was a carpenter.

Manuel: Okay.

Janetta: And Texas is a right to work state and up here, there’s union in Vegas. There’s union. So when I was a freshman in college, I was at the University of North Texas. That summer, after my freshman year, my parents decided to move to Vegas. So I transferred to UNLV that summer of my freshman year right before my sophomore year of college. And that’s how we ended up leaving. And it was honestly the first time I had been somewhere other than Texas for an extended period of time. And it opened my eyes. There’s a story I have. Coming up, we had, you know, the counselor’s office in high school and how they have the college catalogs, right? Well, the colleges you can go to. I don’t remember one school that wasn’t in Texas in the counselor’s office. It was that like Texas centric. So when I moved here and saw my parents like ascend rather quickly, I realized that Texas wasn’t, you know, the best place to be for everybody. You know what I’m saying?

Manuel: Yeah. No, that makes sense, right? Because you’re limited to your exposure, right, in that environment.

Janetta: Big time.

Manuel: Wow.

Janetta: Yeah.

Manuel: And that’s curious. I mean, it’s very interesting because I know that Texas is a big state and there’s a lot of colleges, but I would think that, because even when they go here, they teach you or they expose you to UNLV, UNR, right, like our two big universities here in Nevada. But you also get exposure to like, hey, there’s this one in California, there’s Arizona and not like that in Texas.

Janetta: No.

Manuel: It’s very interesting.

Janetta: I don’t ever, a lot of them, my relatives and stuff, they’d never see themselves leaving. They thought my parents were nuts for leaving. [Laughter] It’s crazy, but it’s true. And now I say, I’ll never move back.

Manuel: Never move back.

Janetta: No. It never changes. You know? I go home and I’m kind of sad because I don’t see any kind of, at least in my circles, forward movement and, you know, I’m all about like, what’s next? And they really, you know, the people in my circle. They really don’t have curiosity like that. Right. So, yeah. It just makes me want to leave. [Laughter]

Manuel: So when you transferred over here to UNLV, what did you go to school for? Like, what was your, what was your idea of like, your career path?

Janetta: So I was a civil engineering major at UNT, was the name of the school, but they didn’t have civil engineering at the time at UNLV. The closest thing they had was like architecture related engineering. So I just went into that thinking, that’s what I wanted to do.

Manuel: Okay.

Janetta: Yeah. Just in general, I thought that’s what I wanted. But then I took a pre-cal. I didn’t take calculus in high school and I barely passed it. I got a D on a scale. So I really got a, probably a F, but the teacher was nice. He graded on a curve and I passed, but I was like, because I would have to go to calculus three and I was like, no, that’s not happening. So I bounced around. I was a marketing major. I like sports. So I was a sports injury major. So like personal trainer type person that like gets your ankles wrapped up before games and stuff like that. I thought maybe that’s interesting. Then I realized you got to learn a lot about bones and there’s a lot of bones in your body. So I was like, nah, that ain’t for me. [Laughter] So eventually I got to my junior year and I had one core class left that I had avoided. And I had all these different, you know, cores and different like ancillary classes that you can kind of fill in, you know, make it work. And then I was running out of time and the last class, that core class that I had to take was public speaking and I avoided it like the plague.

Manuel: Really?

Janetta: Yes. I loved it. I took it and I loved it. The next semester I became a communications major and that’s how I ended up in mass media. So I was only a communications major the last year and a half of my degree. I ended up with like 160 credits and only needed 120 to graduate because I changed my [Laughter] major so many times. So yeah, that’s how I ended up with my communication degree.

Manuel: Interesting.

Janetta: Yeah.

Manuel: So the one thing that you thought like, hey, I want nothing to do with this.

Janetta: Yep.

Manuel: Interesting.

Janetta: Life be like that though.

Manuel: Yeah. So then you got your degree in communications and then what did you think was going to happen after that? Like what did you envision yourself going into the career, obviously into the communications field?

Janetta: Right.

Manuel: Doing what?

Janetta: A television production in particular, like the behind the scenes. In school we had projects where we would very similar to here where you set up cameras. There’s talent. I didn’t want to be the talent. There were some people in that major who wanted to be journalists and interview people like you. And then there were people like me who don’t want to be in front of the camera. I want to be behind the camera, very technical editing, things like that, putting stories together and kind of making them flow. So that’s what I thought I wanted to do. But like a lot of things I think when you’re young, you think ideally things are going to go a certain way and they don’t, right? So I ultimately ended up at ESPN Zone. You remember at New York, New York, there was ESPN Zone and it was a restaurant. But then they had all these TVs everywhere, like 150 or something. And there was something called Production Assistance there. And our job was to program all the TVs. So depending on what event was happening that day, the main screens, the big, huge screens had particular sports on them. And then the littler screens had less popular sports like lacrosse or something like that. So you had to kind of decide based on your own knowledge like what sports or what events were going to be the most popular that day. So like this NFL playoffs or NBA playoffs, that kind of thing. And then those are routed to TVs all around. And so all we would do is program those. And then we would do presentations for the staff because you can imagine people are coming in thinking that the servers and stuff, know sports, they don’t know anything about sports. So we would have to edit film from like SportsCenter the day before, put it to music and do presentations for the staff before their shift. So they would know like what big things happen in sports that day. So I did that for like a year and a half or so, I think. And there was a friend of mine who actually worked at Channel 13, ABC affiliate out here in Vegas. And he came by one day and he was a classmate of mine. And I had sent my resume to all the different, you know, TV stations, ABC, NBC, all the places, you know, I’m thinking like I’m fly, you know what I’m saying, give a girl a shot and nothing, no response. And then I ran into him, his name was John, I ran into him, he was working there. He was on the talent side. And he was like, give me your resume and I gave it to him. And like two days later, I got a call back from ABC. So it’s just lessons, you know what I’m saying, where it’s like, that’s the literally the same resume.

Manuel: That you’re sent that you had probably sent them probably a couple of times before for different positions. And they were just like, no, no response, not even a response.

Janetta: No, not even a response. And back then it was email. It wasn’t like job sites like now that, you know, you could send a blast of like a whole bunch of resumes to. No it was individual emails, you had to find the person’s email maybe call the receptionist, get the email, and then send the email to the person, the receptionist said, you hope for a response and things like that. Or maybe go in person and drop your resume off at the front desk or something, you know? Back then nothing. And then as soon as he, I ran into him a couple of days later, got an interview and got the job.

Manuel: That’s pretty cool. I mean, it came up in a conversation with other people, right? And just in general, the conversation I’ve had with other people in the industry and really any industry, right? It’s that networking piece that people don’t think that makes a difference.

Janetta: It’s huge. Yeah. Schools don’t teach, at least not when I was going. The power of networking and knowing like, the perception is what you know matters and it does when you get in the door, but you gotta get in the door first, yeah.

Manuel: And that’s one of the things. And I don’t know on your background. So me, I was always like, you know, my parents instilled hard work, right? So you said, hey, the skills. So it’s like, hey, I’ve got to go through and it’s like, hey, hard work. Like you’re, you’re work ethic. That is what’s going to go through and shine and that’s what will help you, but it doesn’t get you in the door because people don’t, they don’t know you’re work ethic. There’s no way to see that on a resume. It’s talking to other people and having them understand what it is that you do.

Janetta: Yeah.

Manuel: Okay.

Janetta: Definitely.

Manuel: Well, that’s pretty cool. So I’m assuming you somewhat enjoyed working at the ESPN zone because based on what you’re going to school, right? I mean, you’re doing the sports.

Janetta: Yeah.

Manuel: You know, like that was a career path and how you’re doing, you know, a little bit of the TV on the film stuff. So then now you get over to channel 13 and what did you start doing there?

Janetta: I worked the morning shift. So we had to be at work at like three o’clock in the morning from three to like noon. And so we were that, that five AM, six AM, six 30 broadcast. So I’d get tape from the day before and edit anything they told me to edit kind of like B roll, which would be like things without audio on them that maybe the anchor speaks over between teasing to the next show, that kind of thing. And then I was just a basic camera person. I stood behind the camera and then in the studio, there are multiple areas. Maybe there’s a stand up area where the anchor moves from where they’re sitting down to where they’re standing up. You have to swing the camera around that same camera that the second anchor uses is also for the weatherman. See in a commercial break, you may move it to the weatherman. And that was it. And just kind of watch the rundown and make sure you know where your cameras are supposed to be and make sure you frame them right. I learned all that stuff in school. So it was kind of a natural progression of like a career, quote unquote. For a young person, I was probably 22, 23 at that time.

Manuel: And how long did you stay there in that field?

Janetta: Four years.

Manuel: Four years.

Janetta: I did that four years. And I moved up over time, because younger people come in, at least that’s how it worked at channel 13. Younger people come in, older people maybe move, and then a position opens up. Same shift, three to 12. But a position may open up for a floor director where you’re queuing the talent. You’re making sure that the cameras are in the right place. You’ve got your headset on. You’re communicating with the producers and the director to change things if things go awry. You’ve got breaking news. You’ve got to strike a bunch of stuff. There’s a lot going on, even at a small, at that time Vegas was 57 market, and the lower the number, the higher the market. So a one would be maybe like L.A. or New York or Chicago or something. Vegas was 57. So I never got to see like a big production, but there’s a lot of work that goes into it and a lot of stress. And over time, as I got more and more responsibility, I moved from in the studio to in the control room where all the TV monitors are and they’re editing and things like that in real time. And I ended up being an audio person where I’m mic’ing people up and making sure that all the mics had batteries and all that. All the way, I was a technical director. That’s the last thing I did with the big board with like a thousand buttons on it. And you’re take camera two, take camera one, you’re listening to the producer and you’re just kind of on the fly, it’s editing live, basically. But I just felt like I was making like 13 an hour. It’s probably good money back then.

Manuel: As a program director?

Janetta: As a technical director, like, yeah. And, you know, I found out later there was a guy who started after me. He went to UNLV, same degree, all that. He was maybe two years younger. Found out he was making like $2 more than me. He was making like 15. And I was a technical director at the time and he was graphics. And I had moved from graphics to technical director, had like two extra years of experience, was a much more stressful job. And I was only getting incremental raises, but you don’t know what people are making, you know, unless they tell you, right? So I felt some kind of way like, man, that’s crazy. And then the magnitude of the errors, because when you’re pushing buttons, you could take the wrong camera, take a commercial when you’re not supposed to, those kind of things. They’re a big deal, especially for the talent, because that’s their brand that’s on display. They may be trying to move from Vegas to Phoenix. And they may need that tape to give to a person in Phoenix who wants to maybe hire them. And it just became too much. I felt like it was too overblown. I thought they were way too serious for the moment. And so I quit. I stopped doing it.

Manuel: So it’s just because obviously it looked like a combination of things, right? The stress level, understanding that at this point you’re undervalued.

Janetta: Facts.

Manuel: Right?

Janetta: So yeah.

Manuel: And you just quit? No, no.

Janetta: Oh, yeah.

Manuel: I’m moving. It was just like, hey, I’m done with this.

Janetta: You quit before you quit, right?

Manuel: Yeah.

Janetta: A lot of times. [Laughter] You quit in your head, but I was taught you don’t quit a job until you got another job. So I ended up, you don’t know this by me, I ended up in collections, yes, for HCA, which is a hospital corporation. They own a bunch of hospitals. And I was working in the, not collections where I’m calling your mom and saying, pay your bills or something, right? It was a hospital collections. So I worked in the Blue Cross Blue Shield of California division. So say you got Blue Cross Blue Shield as your insurance and you go into the hospital. Well, you don’t see a bill, right? What happens is the bill comes, the hospital has the bill, they send it to the insurance company first, itemized. And then that bill has to be paid. Now sometimes it doesn’t pay everything, that goes to somebody else. But I would be the one to call the hospital and be like, where’s our money at? You know? And then it’s a dance. I know they’re going to ask for specific information, maybe an itemized bill, maybe an explanation of this particular procedure that was done on this person. And I would have to go back into the database, pull that data, send it to the hospital, put like a code in it to have it reappear in my queue after say two weeks and then call them back for the same thing. And then put notes. And then over time, eventually you get paid, maybe 90 days, 45, depending. And eventually you get paid. And that’s what I did. I did that for like two years. And my husband was deployed to Iraq at the time and he was like, you should go back to school. I was like, man, I ain’t never going back to see you crazy. He’s like, no, what are you doing? And I was like, yeah, you got a point. So I ended up getting my master, that’s how I ended up getting my master’s because my husband was like, he was getting his master’s at the time. He was like, you should go back. I was like, nah, you crazy. I don’t want to do that. And I did. I ended up going back. Yeah.

Manuel: For communications again?

Janetta: No.

Manuel: So what did you decide?

Janetta: Sport management this time.

Manuel: Really? Okay.

Janetta: So he was like, if you could do something, what would it be? And I love sports. So back to ESPN, right? And so I got a master’s in sport management. And one of the things that I did before I started was I called up the dean’s secretary and got a meeting with him because I was just curious about what this program was about and all these things. And he was very nice. He met with me and he was like, you know, we have an internship because I had been selected as a graduate assistant where you get like a stipend. They paid 90% of your degree to work 20 hours a week, either as like a TA, a teaching assistant. Most of the time that’s what it is. And I just assumed that’s what I would do. But he was like, you know, one of the people who had this internship is graduating, would you be interested? And I was like, yeah. So that was with the PGA tour. So the year and a half I spent getting my degree. I was also an intern for the PGA tour for FRYS.com open, which is a tour stop here in Vegas. It was Michelin open at one point. I don’t know if they still have it or not. I don’t follow golf anymore. But I spent a year and a half learning the business of golf and promotions and marketing and all that stuff through sport. And yeah, then I got my degree. I actually graduated in a year and a half, a year. I started, I had gotten accepted and had picked a degree and my husband was in Iraq. We he came back. We went out to visit his family. We had been dating for four years at that time. We came out to visit his family and he proposed. So I was still going to go to school. He was in the Marine Corps. He was stationed in California. And so I was like, man, I just was about to start school. What do I do? And I went to my graduate advisor and I said to her, I want to finish next winter. What do I do? And she said, that’s impossible. I said, no, but tell me, okay, I get it. She was adamant. she said, I can’t. That’s not possible. And I said, well, tell me what, what do I need to do? Just hypothetically, just throw it out, you know? And she said, well, you know, you’ve got to write a pro paper. You’ve got to finish all your credits. I said, well, if I do credits now, credits next semester, credits in the summer, credits in the fall, can I? And she said, but you got to finish your paper. She said the average attrition rate in this program is 50%. 50% of people quit before they finish. And the average graduate takes five years. And I said, I want to try. Are you willing to help me? And she said, yeah. She’s like, yeah, I’ll help you. And I did that following December, we got married August. Like I think we were engaged for like a week. And then we went to the Justice of the Peace and got married because I never had dreams of…I was a tomboy. I was a big wedding with a dress and nothing. So he was like, when we were standing at the bank in line, back in the day, when you had to stand in line to go to the bank.

Manuel: And they wouldn’t charge you for it.

Janetta: Do they charge?

Manuel: They charge you sometimes.

Janetta: You’re kidding me.

Manuel: No.

Janetta: That’s crazy.

Manuel: To go and talk to a teller.

Janetta: Wow. So yeah, I haven’t been at the bank in a while. So yeah, he was like, why don’t we just get married now? I was like, let me call my mama and see what she says. And she’s like, it’s a great idea. So he got married. And then the following December, I graduated thinking that I was going to move with him. But by the time all that went by, Afghanistan. So he deployed again. He deployed to Afghanistan. So he was in Afghanistan. And I ended up moving to Atlanta. We bought a house in Atlanta and his mom lives in Atlanta. And I thought, well, sports, you know, Vegas didn’t have any pro teams. UNLV was the only team. And I got an internship my last semester with UNLV Athletics. Got offered a job with UNLV Athletics, but turned it down because I’d already decided to move to Atlanta, bought a house and all that. Thinking, you know, Falcons, Georgia Tech, you know, all these college teams, I’m gonna for sure be able to get a job. So I moved out there with my brother. No job. But you know, my husband, we bought a house. And my mother-in-law lived probably a mile away or something. So I thought, I’ll just go be big time out there.

Manuel: And is it part of the reason you thought that? And the reason I asked is I had a similar mindset is you, you’ve got a bachelor’s and a master’s degree. Me I came out and I was like, man, I got a bachelor’s degree. People are just going to, people are going to be fighting over me. And that was not the case. So is that kind of the same idea that you had or what made you think that I’m going to get a job?

Janetta: I thought so. I did. I thought people were just, it was just going to be easy, kind of very similar to when I was, if I had learned my lesson, [Laughter] when I got my bachelor’s, I thought it was going to be gravy. Like I got a master’s degree now. Like I’ve got a resume, you know, I worked for the PGA, I worked for UNLV Athletics that’s on my resume. I did an internship as well with the arena football team out here, Gladiators, I think it was called. I think for six months where I was doing that in their PR department. So I felt like I had all checked all the boxes, but again, resumes. So what ended up happening was the economy crashed on me, I mean, on everybody.

Manuel: Right. So it’s around the 2008.

Janetta: Yeah. So I graduated December, 2007 and then the economy tanked and the only offer I got was from the Falcons for a sales rep and they were going to charge minimum wage plus commission and my pride just wouldn’t let me work for 7.25.

Manuel: Really?

Janetta: Nah.

Manuel: Even knowing your personality and just knowing that your hard work, I mean, because obviously you went back and this is like, you can’t finish in a year and a half and obviously you proved her wrong. Right. So I know you well enough to know that if you put your mind to something, you can make it happen. So it was just strictly a pride thing? You didn’t think to yourself like, man, I’m going to take this job, I’m going to kill it and show them. Really.

Janetta: No, strictly pride. I didn’t even think twice about that job. Nope. So I ended up working at Enterprise Rent-A-Car. Renting cars. See what pride will do? [Laughter] Renting cars.

Manuel: So you’re the sales rep, like you’re the person at the counter.

Janetta: Yeah, and I’m selling anyway. Even though I didn’t know that’s what that was, they didn’t tell you that’s what that was.

Manuel: So what did they tell you it was going to be? So what was your idea of like, hey, I’m going to go into Enterprise, like it was just…

Janetta: I thought I was just going to give people their cars and that was it. But I realized once I got in that the people who ascend were the sales people, the people who had numbers. You know, they didn’t ever say hit these numbers, but it was obvious that the successful people hit numbers. Yep.

Manuel: And is that something that you just didn’t know from lack of experience? Is it not communicated to everybody? Like, I mean, is it something you just learn on the job?

Janetta: I think you just learned it.

Manuel: Okay.

Janetta: I can’t remember them in training, you know, teaching us that that was the priority.

Manuel: Right. Or that’s a goal or a metric that you’re measured on?

Janetta: No.

Manuel: Okay.

Janetta: Because it wasn’t like your manager told you you didn’t get any sales today. It wasn’t like that at all. It wasn’t aggressive. But the ones who you knew who got sales and those people ended up managing their own branch or whatever, you know, yeah.

Manuel: That’s interesting. So how long did you last there?

Janetta: Gosh, gosh, probably maybe six months maybe. If I had to guess. And I was renting a car to a guy and most of the time it’s people who get into car accidents. 90% of people who rent cars, they get into car accidents and their insurance is paying X amount, $25 or whatever. So they’re not trying to pay out of pocket for to upgrade, you know, unless they got kids like, I can’t, I got kids, I got a dog, can I get a minivan? Oh, you pay extra $3 a day for a minivan or whatever. It’s normal. And there was a guy who I rented to and, you know, you have conversation. Well, I’m a conversationalist, right? So I was having a conversation with him and he learned about my background a little bit about my husband and all that and how he was in Afghanistan. And he said to me, an impactful statement. He said, are you going to be the chapter of somebody else’s book or are you going to write your own? I don’t know where that came from. I don’t know. But I was like, wow. Basically saying like, why are you here? You don’t belong here. So what are you doing?

Manuel: And how long of a conversation was this?

I mean. Janetta: I can’t remember. That’s the only thing.

Manuel: Did it feel like it was like a 10 minute conversation, 30 minutes? Like how long? I mean.

Janetta: It could have been.

Manuel: Really?

Janetta: It could have been a long, long enough for him to feel like he knew me well enough to tell me that he was a stranger, you know? And I was like, wow, but I feel like sometimes you’re in the right place and the right message hits you at the right time. And if you listen, the sky’s the limit, man.

Manuel: Yeah.

Janetta: Yeah. So I was like, wow, that’s crazy. And I thought about it. I don’t know how long, not long, not crazy, not long. And then I was talking to my husband one day and I told him, I want to join the military. He thought I was nuts. Because at this point, he’s known me since 2002, so it’s 2008, like six years. Military was never a conversation. For me, never. And he was like, really, like, wow. And I told him what the man said. He was like, okay. And he said, you know, after several, I’m sure several conversations we had, he was like, okay, you sound serious. So here’s what I want you to do. He said, talk to every branch because you’re valuable. You got a degree, you’re smart. He said, pick a job with a bonus because back then, two wars, right? So a bonus and a top secret clearance. He said, don’t pick a job that doesn’t have a clearance because after you get out, you get to keep the clearance and you can get a good job. So I did. I picked what I thought I wanted to do, which was linguist. So you learn a language and top secret clearance. And I went in, there’s a test you have to take. Just like, there’s an ASVAB for like basic military entrance, right? And then there’s an additional test called a D-Lab for language. And Manny, I bombed that bad boy. [Laughter] I was like, about 10 minutes in, I was like, what are they talking about? Because it was a fake language, like gibberish. But at the beginning, they tell you what each syllable means. And I’m sure there are people who are amazing at that, who are like, oh, that means that, that means that. And then it would say like gobbledygook. And then I’m supposed to be able to tell what sentence that was that it just said. And I was like, nah, it’s impossible.

Manuel: And you did this, did you know another language? I mean, is there something that made you think, and you were just like, hey, I’m going to pick one up? [Laughter]

Janetta: Yeah, I was hoping. I was thinking so. It had bonus. It had a clearance. I followed my instructions.

Manuel: It hits the check marks, right?

Janetta: Yeah, come on. I followed the rules. And I failed it. Bad. Like, at some point, you know, when you’re taking the test and when you know you don’t know anything, you just start.

Manuel: C, C, C, C, C, C.

Janetta: Right. How long is this going to be? And so, yeah, the Army was like, you need to pick something else, my recruiter. And at the time, I didn’t know I could have walked away and been like, no, I don’t want it. If I can’t do this, I’m not going to do anything. But he said I got to pick something. So I knew top secret clearance and a bonus. And the only job available was a Military Intelligence Systems Maintainer. I was not a tech person at all. I didn’t even know what it was. But I picked it. I got a bonus and it’s clearance.

Manuel: Hits check boxes, so.

Janetta: And that’s how I got into tech.

Manuel: Really? So it wasn’t like, hey, I think I’m interested in this or, hey, audio, video. Like, I mean, it’s somewhat technical, right? I mean, you have to understand some of it. I mean.

Janetta: Kind of, I guess.

Manuel: So, wow. So you just almost kind of fell into this career, right? So you didn’t actually go and say, hey, this is what I want to do. Or this sounds interesting. You’re just like, clearance, bonus. I’ll figure it out.

Janetta: Let’s go. Yes. Yep. That was it. That’s how I got into tech.

Manuel: Wow. That is, yeah, I didn’t know that.

Janetta: From a random stranger who was like, do something, basically.

Manuel: And is that something? So that that statement, obviously, you remembered, is that something you continue to kind of think about as you’re making career decisions or just things in general?

Janetta: I feel like I changed my whole perspective.

Manuel: OK.

Janetta: That day, he said that. So everything I do, anything I put my time into, it has to be impactful. It just has to be or I’m not going to do it, if that makes sense.

Manuel: It does.

Janetta: Yeah.

Manuel: I mean.

Janetta: Yeah I don’t think about it much, unless I’m telling the story and everything.

Manuel: But but it’s just now, obviously, it’s ingrained, right? Because I have a similar I have a similar phrase that like I found. It was in high school. So I don’t know if you remember, because you were in sports, or this price sounds familiar, East Bay catalogs?

Janetta: East Bay.

Manuel: They used to come.

Janetta: They still have those.

Manuel: They do.

Janetta: They they do.

Manuel: I’ll have to look at those up.

Janetta: They do.

Manuel: So yeah, those East Bay catalogs. And I remember I had gotten. I made the JV team. So I didn’t try out my freshman year and didn’t make this for baseball. And then I went in and, you know, made the JV team. And I was kind of looking like, all right, cool. Like I’m going to get some gear. And I thought I was pretty decent and literally like all the way up through here. Similar to you, right? I’m good. I got the skills I’m just going to go and then you start to play. You know, the talent pool gets better as you start to move up. And I remember going through this catalog and there’s a phrase and it said, Sacrifice Everything…Concede Nothing.

Janetta: Oh, I was like.

Manuel: Oh, I like that, right? Like, I mean, all right, that’s cool. And I got that as far as like competition, right? Like, hey, I’m going to sacrifice whatever it takes to get it. And I’m not just going to say, oh, cool, like I’ll let you have it. Or I’m going to go through like, no, competitive. So I grabbed a rubber band, you know, the little thicker ones. And I wrote that on there and I would wear it every day.

Janetta: Kind of like the things they have now with the words on it.

Manuel: So that was before.

Janetta: Wow.

Manuel: So I just I had that. And now I’m like, man, I could have marketed that. And, you know, sold a bunch of these.

Janetta: Yeah, I’ve been a billionaire.

Manuel: So I did that. And I used to all the time coach would see that. And he’s like one day he asked me, he’s like, what is that? Because sometimes it would, you know, he would see the black, you know, with the sharpie and sometimes nothing. So I showed him. He’s like, oh, interesting. So eventually I kind of worked my way up. But that’s something that even now some subconsciously, I may not think about it. It does come up into my mind ever so often like that phrase, that mantra.

Janetta: Yeah.

Manuel: And you think about it and you and I have had those conversations before where like.

Janetta: Never heard that story.

Manuel: Your mind, your mind is working even when it’s not working.

Janetta: That’s right.

Manuel: So just the fact that I wrote that down, had it on there. And I mean, years, I mean, I had that thing for years. And it would get old, crusty and snap, grab a new one and redid it and put it on there.

Janetta: That’s awesome. I love that story. That’s great. Yeah. Yeah. It can just one thing can fuel you and set a direction for you for sure. And yeah, that was it. Yeah.

Manuel: So then not knowing tech, not being into. What was that position like? So I mean, obviously they train you in the military. So what kind of skills did you learn and pick up?

Janetta: Well, in the military, they assume you know nothing, which worked out. Most of the kids, most of the people coming right out of high school, the kids who ended up in that job in the military, you call it an M.O.S. were tech kind of geeky kids. They built their own computers from scratch at home and things like that. They knew exactly what they were signing up for, right? So because they assume the military assumes you know nothing. They started us with basic electronics. ACDC, things like that, logic gates, components, soldering. So we learned everything from ACDC to we built a computer from scratch. Sun, Windows, you know what I’m saying? Back in the day, Windows Server, we learned that how to be like a Server Admin. And then we have a time frame where we learn how to repair radios and things like that. We soldered and built a radio from scratch Fiber optic cables, ethernet cables, all those things. And then at some point we end up at last class or two is satellite deployment. So how to deploy satellites and troubleshoot them, the signal and all that stuff. So it’s really just a wide range of technical skills that are needed for somebody who can work on top secret systems. So you have to have that clearance to work on this system. So they had to teach you kind of anything and everything. And so it was an amazing foundation without even knowing. Yeah, yeah. And I found out I like to fix things and I won’t quit until I figure it out kind of thing. And I like that I like being able to figure something out and solve a problem and see the things working after they were broken. They would break things on purpose in our tests. And then our tests would be to fix it. Those kind of things to make sure we knew how to go through the process of troubleshooting something and then repairing it. Because basically you’re in those scenarios, you’re in the field. And a lot of times you’re the only what we’re called thirty five tangos. You’re the only one. And there is no one. There’s manuals of like the device that you’re actually repairing. But you have to learn how to read schematics, understand how things are connected. Find where the fault is, figure out how to fix that fault with the tools you have at your disposal, those kind of things. So it was a really good, a really good foundation for sure, for tech.

Manuel: And is that something that you discovered then? Or have you always been like a curious person to like or just are you just that determined that like I’m going to get this done no matter what?

Janetta: I think my mom would probably say I’m just determined.

Manuel: Really? J

anetta: Yeah, I think so. [Laughter] Yeah, I think so. I think that’s what my mom would say. Yeah.

Manuel: Interesting. So then how long did you just kind of stay in the military? I was only in for two years. So the school that I went to, it’s the it was the second longest school in the army at the time, forty seven weeks, which most schools in the army, may be between eight and twenty on the high end. And this was more than double that because of all the things we had to learn. And in the midst of training and going to class, we still had to run. We still had to be army people, you know, even though we were kind of geeky. Right. And I broke my pelvis. Yes. So I was answering the phone and I felt the pop. And then when I went to stand up, like I was laying flat and I reached over to answer the phone, had my conversation and everything and hung up the phone, I was talking to my husband and went to stand up and I couldn’t stand up, fell down. And it took them three months to figure out I had a stress fracture in my pelvis and ended up on bed rest for 12 weeks. So I had to go. I went back home because my husband by then he had come back. From Afghanistan. No, he hadn’t come back yet. He was still in Afghanistan. So all that happened, he’s still in Afghanistan. So I went with my mom in Vegas to my dad and I stayed in bed. Flat. The only thing I could do is get up and go to the restroom. And then I had to learn how to walk again. And I didn’t quit. The doctor told me you should quit. Like you can’t have this injury and be in the military. It’s not going to work. And, you know, you can’t tell me that.

Manuel: You don’t know me.

Janetta: You don’t know me, lady. Don’t you know? No. And so I didn’t listen. She was right. Ultimately, she was right. I re-injured it several times over about six months. Finally, the doctor said, you have two options. You can get out or you can get spinal injections and it will eliminate the pain. And then every six to eight weeks, you’re going to have to come back, get injections. And I knew people in the army who did who chose to get injections and that I didn’t want that life for myself. So I decided to get a medical separation. So about two years, so about 18 months by the time it all kind of ironed out about two years in the military. And so I knew that I was getting separated. You get about three months, probably. I got about three months before I actually was separated from the military. And in that time, my husband, he’s like the ultimate mentor for me. He’s like, you got to find another job. And so I started sending my resume out and again, networking. I had a friend who her nicknames Boots. She was in my roommate in school in military. And she had a friend who had gotten out. She was still in. But her friend had gotten out and had gotten a job with a contractor. And she said, oh, my friend Jackie works for a contractor. Send me your resume. I’ll send it to her. And I got a job in Washington, D.C. off of a friend of a friend who sent my resume out to to it. It was called NJVC, a contractor, defense contractor, basically. And I ended up going from the army and I was in California because my husband was stationed by then in California to D.C. And I moved to D.C. And got a job as a Help Desk person.

Manuel: Oh, OK.

Janetta: Yeah.

Manuel: So all those skills you had, I mean, similar, right? So now you’re able to at least talk. So I’m well, let me back up here. When you say Help Desk.

Janetta: Yeah.

Manuel: Was that just answering the phone?

Janetta: Good question. See, there’s a lot of Help Desk, right?

Manuel: There’s different types of Help Desk positions. So were you on the phone? Were you like Help Desk, like tech support?

Janetta: No.

Manuel: Each business names it differently.

Janetta: Right. I was in accounts. So all I did was run scripts to make accounts.

Manuel: OK.

Janetta: So I was working at an agency in the military called the National Geospatial Intelligence Agency. And they make all the maps.

Manuel: Sounds fancy.

Janetta: Yeah. They make all the maps NGA. And it was my job to provide accounts for people who work at NGA. But because it’s top secret, remember my husband said, get a clearance. There are levels of access and you’ve got to have a certain level of clearance to get access to a certain and account for a certain system, right? So I would just vet the person, make sure they had the right level of account and run scripts. It was all scripted and I would just run scripts. And that was it.

Manuel: And these are scripts that were already made for you.

Janetta: And that was it. That was it.

Manuel: I’m not gonna lie it sounds kind of boring. [Laughter] I mean, it sounds fun because I’m all about automating. But if I didn’t create the script.

Janetta: No, I had no idea what they did.

Manuel: Oh.

Janetta: And it was a ticketing system and you’re just going through and making sure you’re like the human eyes to make sure. Yes, this person can access this system because I check to make sure they’re allowed and all that. And then you create them and then you send emails, I guess, out with telling the person they have access to this system. And here’s your here’s a link, I guess, to log in or whatever.

Manuel: Right.

Janetta: And that’s all I did all day.

Manuel: And how long did you do that for?

Janetta: Six months.

Manuel: OK.

Janetta: And then I got a job with State Department, another contractor. I had a friend who was a thirty five tango who was out and he reached out on Facebook and said, I’m working for this contractor. They’re looking for people. We had a like a channel with all the thirty five tangos in it that he posted in there. And I was like, I’m interested and it was in Iraq. The war was still going on. It was in Iraq. And ultimately, it was a subcontractor who worked for the State Department. So I went out to Iraq and work there as a this time, Help Desk.

Manuel: Oh, you actually went there?

Janetta: I was actually help desk again. OK. Yeah, I went. Yes, I did. Yeah, first time out the country.

Manuel: What was that like?

Janetta: It was eyeopening for sure. I think it was a life changing experience for sure. I knew war, right? I was in the army. You know, you would think I knew my husband was in the military. He deployed by then three times by then. So I had an idea of from pictures with of things that he was doing over there. But no, it’s a whole another world. It really is. And it opened my eyes to the impact of America and how we take the fight to people so that we can do this right right here and have a conversation. We’re not worried at all about bombs. That’s that’s what America wants.

Manuel: Right.

Janetta: That’s what I got from it, because when I got back, it was calm. And and over there, it was chaos. And by then that war had been going, I believe, 10 years, I believe. And it shocked me coming home because it was, you know, Kevlar, helmets, bunkers, explosions and things like that. You go from that to instantly you’re back home.

Manuel: Right.

Janetta: And stop people stopping at stop signs and walking their dog.

Manuel: No slow transition.

Janetta: It’s like, yeah, it was like, wow. But it it gave me a good understanding from my perspective of like what power looks like. Yeah.

Manuel: Wow. And I mean, just it’s kind of crazy just hearing, right, coming from this small town of Texas, right? And then just all these experiences, right? How they’re just expanding your your horizons, your experience and just your perspective on just life in general.

Janetta: Life man. It’s wild. Yeah. And I all these things we’re talking about, like over time, it’s not just about a career. It’s about a person like shaping themselves into something. You know what I mean?

Manuel: Oh, I agree.

Janetta: Yeah, it’s it’s crazy. Yeah, it’s cool, though.

Manuel: It’s cool, especially like now hearing a lot of these stories. I understand more about why you are the way you are. [Laughter] I mean, in a good way, like, I mean, we’ve been good friends. And, you know, like our conversations that we’ve had, like outside of this type of forum. But now I hear a lot of stuff like, oh, oh, OK, that makes sense. That’s why she sees things in this particular way. It’s just, again, your life experiences have shaped who you are.

Janetta: Yeah, definitely.

Manuel: So that Help Desk position. Because this is obviously,

Janetta: Another one.

Manuel: What is that? So what was that role for Help Desk?

Janetta: Traditional.

Manuel: Traditional.

Janetta: So I’m imaging laptops when new people will come in. I would image their laptop, issue their laptop and then repair laptops that come in that are broken. And then we had to we had a satellite guy, so I never had to deploy them. But we would wire up the camps and give each each camp had living quarters. So you’re living and working in the same space. So there are offices and then they’re living quarters. We wired up all the living quarters with Ethernet. So each person had their own individual Internet and they connected that to satellite switch. So we had a big bunker that that had our that had our switches in it, our networking equipment, and that is routed to a satellite. So we our job was to make sure that the camp had internet and that all the computers and printers were working. And that’s all I did. Seven to seven, seven days a week. Yeah. Mm hmm.

Manuel: I’m sure you picked up a lot there, I mean, especially in a remote area like that. So is it still the same situation where you are the person?

Janetta: You’re the person. And if the internet goes out, they knock on your door. [Laughter] Janetta my internet. It’s not working like, OK, you know, and you go figure it out. You know, you’re the guy. Yeah.

Manuel: That’s interesting. I mean, I’ve never.

Janetta: I did that six months.

Manuel: I’ve most of the positions I’ve in, right, especially when I first started out, like there was somebody there to kind of help guide me basics of like, I mean, you mentioned wiring cables. I mean, first position I got when I went from Help Desk to like a PC Technician. I remember the guy that was there and this was my experience throughout most of my career, the guy was there. He’s like, Hey, do you know how to create a CAT5 cable? No, I’ve read about it. Like I understand how to do it, but I’ve never done it.

Janetta: OK.

Manuel: Do you know how to tone a cable? No. So he was going through and I got that hands on experience. But somebody showing me, eventually, you know.

Janetta: You pick it up.

Manuel: You don’t learn everything, right? But you pick up enough to where like, OK, I can I can fill in the gaps here. But I’ve never had to be like, all right, well, here’s this book or here’s this manual and figure it out or or people are going to continue. [Makes knocking sign]

Janetta: Oh, yeah. That’s their lifeline. It wasn’t just work. It was life. It was their kids. It was their spouse. It was, you know what I’m saying? That was the only way you could communicate with the rest of the world was through the Internet, you know? So it’s important to make sure that everything stayed up as best you could. Of course, there are things like sandstorms and things like that that would knock your connection out and people understand that. But for the most part, yeah, it was it was it was fun in an adventurous kind of way, I think, if that even makes sense, fun in a war zone. I don’t know if I should have said that. But yeah, well.

Manuel: I mean, I guess it’s fun in your environment and your role that what you’re doing.

Janetta: And I like my job. I like fixing things, you know, I like people knowing that I could fix things and people building confidence in me and saying, oh, go talk to Janetta. So and so sent me my computer is not working and I can fix it and things like that. So yeah.

Manuel: So quick question there. So in that type of role, especially when you first came in, you’re new. Did you get any type of, I don’t want to say pushback, but kind of looks like, wait a minute, you’re the person that’s going to fix this for us?

Janetta: No, I didn’t know.

Manuel: OK, so there’s never that like, oh, because you’re a female because nothing.

Janetta: No, no, no, no, I don’t recall ever having any. I gosh, there was one other female there. I’m like every other, you know, tech job.

Manuel: You’re one of a few.

Janetta: One or two, you know, but I never no. I never got any kind of bravado or anything. I think I think in that environment, you’re desperate really like the person who fixes it is the person and there is no one else. So there is no one to look around and say, you know, where’s your boss or something? Everybody knows like I’m the guy.

Manuel: And I think also in talking to other friends that I have that are in the military, it’s just that environment in general, right? Because you get people from, I mean, it’s just it’s a melting pot of people from everywhere. So they’re just like, they learn to like, I don’t care who you are, where you came from, can you do your job is really the important part.

Janetta: Absolutely. That’s right. That’s true.

Manuel: All right. So then how long were you out there in Afghanistan?

Janetta: I was in Iraq. I was in Iraq six months and the war ended. About three months into my time in Iraq, the war ended. And so it took three months because when we flew in, we flew into an army or an air force base. You didn’t need a passport visa. We had our passport, but you’re not going through official channels, right? So then we had to get visa to get out. So it took the State Department or whoever, the government time to get our visa. So we’re just chilling. You know, I’m still doing my job. Obviously still need internet. And during that time, I interviewed on Skype. Back then Skype was the thing, right? So I got an interview. I interviewed on Skype. My husband at that time had moved to Yuma, Arizona.

Manuel: And you were interviewing because that role was over like it’s over. So now you got to find something else.

Janetta: I got to find something else. My husband was stationed in Arizona in Yuma and I found a job in Phoenix. This time as a Sys Admin. So I did level up one. And I was a Windows Server Sys Admin basically and basically desktop person. And, you know, that was back when you actually worked at the office, all of your servers and all of your switches are on-prem. And I was, it was a two man IT shop, me and my manager. And it was our job to same it’s very similar thing to the work that I did overseas. Imaging and issuing laptops, copy machine, printers, networking, troubleshooting, email, you know, deploying Active Directory servers, things like that. That was basically what I did.

Manuel: And that Skype interview and I meant to kind of ask you for some of these other ones, especially when you’re first starting out, like what were these interviews like? I mean, obviously you had somebody that was kind of going through it sounds like most of the time somebody was kind of like, hey, you’d be good for this role.

Janetta: Right. We’ll hook you up.

Manuel: So are they, are you getting questions regarding technology?

Janetta: Yeah.

Manuel: Is it more personality? Is it a combination of both? Like what did, what did that look like? Especially entering, you know, into that field for the first time.

Janetta: I think it was mostly tech related and just asking those questions that you, you need to know in order to get the position that you’re getting. Like, you know, how, how does a server work? For example, you just let the person talk, you know, and hopefully give the right answer. You know, those kind of basic questions. And then in the interim, of course, you’re going to get a sense of the person’s personality. But I think, you know, having the military on my resume and then.

Manuel: Clearance.

Janetta: The clearance and then the State Department kind of thing on my resume. I think that kind of opened doors that maybe I wouldn’t have gotten open. I can’t know because I don’t have another experience, but I really, it really didn’t take long to get jobs after that, if that makes sense.

Manuel: It does because now you’ve got mentioned, right, your degrees and coming out naive. Like, I got a degree, people are going to get me. And now it’s like, okay, well, you have a degree and you’ve got this actual experience. So I think at some point it starts to become easier to land roles.

Janetta: Yes.

Manuel: So now that role is that something that you were just kind of searching on your own. Like, hey, I’m going to search the Arizona area. And just were you blasting stuff out or were you being very selective?

Janetta: I was blasting.

Manuel: Okay.

Janetta: Yeah. By then the job sites had come out, right? And so you could Moster.com. That’s probably where, that’s probably where I got the job.

Manuel: It might be.

Janetta: Where you upload your, gosh, what kind of file was that back then? It wasn’t, it wasn’t Word, it might have been like docx or something file.

Manuel: Could be.

Janetta: And you’re uploading that and then you’re attaching it to jobs. And then, you know, getting interviews. I don’t remember interviewing very many, many times before I accepted the job. It was a Compound Photonics. It was a micro display company. So they had fabs and things like that. And they would build micro displays. And, but I was just the tech person who made sure the Engineers had computers and their internet was working basically. [Laughter] Yeah.

Manuel: Okay.

Janetta: Yeah. Pretty simple.

Manuel: So anything that you picked up there. So it sounds like, you know, each of these roles, you pick something up. So are there any skills that you picked up in that role particularly that you feel like helped you move on to the next role?

Janetta: Honestly, no. No, only because when I left there, I became a stay-at-home mom. So I, and I was at home for almost five years.

Manuel: So.

Janetta: After that.

Manuel: Okay. So.

Janetta: And nothing was relevant after that. [Laughter]

Manuel: Got it. So while you’re in that role, was that when you started your family or shortly after?

Janetta: No, I got pregnant. So my husband came back, or no, my husband, ah, gosh, just so many deployments. While my husband was deployed before he, no. He went to Yuma. Somehow I ended up in Phoenix. I can’t remember if that was before or after he was done, but we were having conversations at that time about starting a family now. At that point, um, we’re married six years, I think, and the clock is ticking Manny like, I’m getting old. And so we started having conversations about kids. And at that time, if you remember kind of the timeline, we never lived together because three deployments, we were married, three deployments, or, and then the second deployment, I joined the military. So now I’m in the military. And then I get out of the military. I’m in DC. He’s in DC for a little bit for training. Then he goes to Arizona. Then he deploys again. So that, or no, he doesn’t deploy again. I deploy to, as a contractor, now I’m in Iraq. And so then he’s in Yuma and then I get a job in Phoenix. So that entire time we never lived together while we were married. So I told him, I didn’t want to have kids, um, and be separated because some military families do that there. The wife stays in a particular stationary place and the husband moves around and they have kids and a family and they make it work, but I didn’t want that. So what the plan was for me to go on maternity leave and find a job. But then I told him, I didn’t want to go back to work. [Laughter] I’ll be doing that too my bad.

Manuel: You’re like, I’m sneaky. Sooo.

Janetta: I didn’t want to go back.

Manuel: It’s just because you wanted to spend time with your kids.

Janetta: Yeah. Yeah, I did. I didn’t want to go back to work. So I started a business, um, Amazon FBA. So I sold, um, I taught myself how to import from China and I imported goods from China and sold them on Amazon. Yeah. I did that while I was a stay-at-home mom, got pregnant again, had our daughter. And so now we got two kids and we moved to San Diego and I do that with them until our son right before kindergarten, like the summer before kindergarten. He went to preschool or, you know, daycare for a little so that he could kind of socialize because he’s at home that entire time. And um, I was like, I got to get back out there. So I never, and by the time I got back out, the cloud wrecked my whole resume because it was no good. I mean, I guess I could have, but I saw, you know, DevOps and I saw Terraform and Ansible back then and Chef and all these things. And I’m like, Python, nothing, none of that stuff existed before I left.

Manuel: Wow.

Janetta: Yeah.

Manuel: So that’s a big change because you said five years, right? I mean, technology moves fast.

Janetta: Oh.

Manuel: I mean, and I can only imagine five years and you’re not looking, I’m sure you’re not looking at trends, right? And you’re in your mind, you’re like, this is what I’m doing.

Janetta: Yeah. Yeah. I thought I could just get a Sys Admin job. So that’s what I did. I went on Monster or whatever at the time, probably still Monster. There were all these tools. I didn’t know what they were. I thought they were technologies. And I said, there’s no way that a single person knows 12 different things. It’s impossible. What are they talking about? There’s their delusional, these employers, right? [Laughter] And then I started talking to recruiters and stuff and they were explaining to me how things have changed and what these tools were. And one of the recruiters recommended that I go on, it was Linux Academy at the time and just learn some stuff and see how all these tools connect. And then I realized, oh, this does that. That does that. So you can know lots of different things. And then AWS was a thing at the time. And I started learning Linux because Windows was kind of out of favor. And Linux terminal command line was more in vogue. But it took me about six months. And I learned Linux. I learned a little bit of the cloud. And then I learned Terraform, how to build a little bit and Ansible. And I interviewed and got a job as a Linux Sys Admin this time.

Manuel: And these recruiters that you were talking to, is this like a headhunter or how did you come across, or is this, you’re just asking recruiters at jobs? Or how did you come across? Do you have you remember?

Janetta: It was at jobs. So I was sending resumes out just like I did the five years before. That’s how I got the job the last time. I didn’t think anything changed. I didn’t know until much later that there were recruiters who didn’t work for an employer whose job it was to find tech people. I didn’t learn that until probably the last five years or so. Yeah. So no, it was through the employer. And then the HR person through the employer is very nice. You know, they’re people. You know, I had to ask them naively, like, what is all this stuff like? No, I don’t know that. No, I don’t know that. Are you feeling it? No. But what is that? What does that mean? And they explained it and said there’s training that you can do. And so I taught myself how to.

Manuel: pick up these tools.

Janetta: Yeah. So yeah, so I learned through those platforms.

Manuel: So through that Linux Academy.

Janetta: Yeah. Like $29 a month. Best $29 a month I ever spent. Yeah.

Manuel: I mean, you can never go wrong investing in yourself, right?

Janetta: No. And I think that’s a mantra I think we both have. I think it’s impossible to get to where we’ve gotten without a motor, a self-driving motor that says here’s the destination. I don’t know how to, the information between here and there. But I’ve got tools and let me see how far I can get and then go, yeah, just go.

Manuel: So then how much time do you think you spent on Linux Academy learning all these skills before you started actually landing interviews?

Janetta: Six months.

Manuel: Six months. Okay.

Janetta: About six months.

Manuel: And that whole time that’s all you’re doing is?

Janetta: I’m interviewing, but I did the math and the skills that I left with. Those jobs still existed, but they were very relatively low paying jobs. So those jobs, I was getting offers, right? So I’m interviewing and stuff, but they would only pay for daycare. And I had two kids, so I had to make significantly more than the daycare to justify putting my kids in daycare and then going off to work. It becomes a decision that’s more related to finances than the technology itself. So through the recruiters and HR people, I kind of probe them to find out what’s the difference between this person and this person? And they would give me a range and I’d be like, okay, I need to learn those skills because I need to make X. And so in that six months, I would say, I was probably getting jobs, maybe 40K before. And the job that I ended up getting was 65, so 25 grand more per year, which allowed for that bump to be able to say, okay, now the babies can go to daycare and we can afford daycare and have justify me going back to work at the same time.

Manuel: Interesting.

Janetta: That daycare is no joke in San Diego.

Manuel: Oh, I bet.

Janetta: You hear me?

Manuel: Nothing is cheap over there.

Janetta: Nah, nah, nah. So I ended up with a defense contractor who worked for the Navy. And so initially I was in-house, Linux Sys Admin, so I was working on-prem devices, switches, issuing laptops, the same thing. But this time Linux. So VMware had shown up, VMware. By then VMware is the thing. Before I left, it probably was, but my shop was not doing any kind of virtualization at all.

Manuel: It wasn’t commonplace at that point.

Janetta: It wasn’t. Okay. Before, in the 2012, 2013 timeframe, VMware. But then by, so this is now 2018. So now they’ve got VMware and all that stuff on-prem course, right? But AWS is a thing, so I’m learning the cloud. DevOps is a new kind of acronym, job description, profession that people really don’t know, but it is, but it’s not. What is that? And I told one of the things my employer asked was, what do you want to do eventually? Like I said, I want to be a DevOps Engineer. I didn’t know exactly what it was, but it sounded fun, right? And he was like, okay. So as I was in there, I had three other coworkers, and it was our job to make sure that the systems in-house for the Engineers, so Software Engineers who worked with the Navy, those kind of things, were the other employees, and they were our users basically. We made sure that their systems were up, that they could connect, and that the servers that they put their code on were up and available, that was the VMware side. And so I knew DevOps, Google told me that meant AWS, that meant Terraform, that meant Command Line, that meant Bash, that meant, you know what I’m saying? So I used Linux Academy to teach me those things, and it’s funny, a lot of the three guys that I was in the shop with, I would tell them like, ooh, I’m learning this cool stuff, you know, the cloud, and they were like, nah, I’m good. They were Linux guys, and these are guys who had been Linux Sys Admins, or Admins for 20 years. They’re like, I’m good, like I’m not trying to, and I was like, are you kidding me? Like I Googled it. Those people are making six figures, you know what I’m saying? And back then six figures was like, ooh, six figures, and they were like, no, I’m good. And I was like, we can study together, you know, I’m excited, kind of like we are, right? And they were like, nah, I’m good. So I kept learning, and I ended up on a contract. So eventually I got two or three certs as part of my goals for work. My manager had the cert to be my goal, so that when a contract came up that had AWS in the contract, that he could put me on it, he was awesome. And he put me on a contract as a DevOps Engineer. And that’s how it became a DevOps Engineer. Yeah.

Manuel: So somewhere in that timeframe, right, and you’re going to kind of have to help me out here.

Janetta: Okay.

Manuel: Because I think this is very important for people. One of the things that you mentioned to me that you did is at some point to demonstrate those skills. And I don’t know if this is part of when you initially got into this role, once you’re in that role, is that you decided to build something for yourself, right? To showcase your skills.

Janetta: Yes.

Manuel: So when did that kind of come into play?

Janetta: That came into play when I got a call from a recruiter who told me I was grossly underpaid.

Manuel: And this is at the DevOps point? This is before?

Janetta: This is at the DevOps point. I’m a DevOps Engineer. It’s COVID. So fast forward two years. Okay. A little less. And it’s COVID. And I’m, you know, you periodically, it’s LinkedIn. So you get tons of inquiries, you know, I’ve got this and everything sounds real cool. And so by then I had probably two or three AWS certs. I’m in AWS all day. And I’m getting these inquiries from recruiters. And that’s how I found out that there are recruiters who don’t actually work for an employer.

Manuel: Right.

Janetta: Right. That’s around that time. I started kind of like probing, not really wanting to leave my job, but I’m at home all day. You know, it’s COVID. So I can interview, whereas before you’re at work, when are you going to interview? You could take a lunchtime, you know, right, but in this scenario, you can, you know, you could take your lunch early or skip lunch and get off late or get off early and take an interview and things like that. You’re much more flexible these days. Right. So I spoke to one of the recruiters and she asked me how much I made and gosh, I think at that time I was making, I think I started at 63, I think I was making 80 at that time. So I had gotten, you know, bonuses and then every December we got a bonus and I got a bonus one time was 7,000. And I thought I was rich.

Manuel: Right.

Janetta: I thought I hit the jackpot on that when I was like, wow, babe, can you believe this?

Manuel: Yeah.

Janetta: I was like, I’m going to check in a mail for Christmas time. I was like, wow, this is how the tech people, wow, they livin big up in here, right? So I’m excited. I’m thinking like I’m getting bonuses I never got. This is the most money I ever made. I’m thinking I’m killing it.

Manuel: Right.

Janetta: And she’s like, I see your resume and you’re grossly underpaid. I was like grossly. I was like, what you mean grossly? What’s that? That’s a big word, man.

Manuel: That’s a big word.

Janetta: Right.

Manuel: I mean, that could be anything.

Janetta: She said to me, Manny, she said, doing what you do, because I’ve spoken to you, I see your resume, you’ve explained kind of what you do at work. You should be making 140 minimum. I about hit the floor.

Manuel: That’s pretty gross.

Janetta: That is disgusting. Right? [Laughter] Because you know, you don’t know, right?

Manuel: Right. Because it’s not something that’s talked about.

Janetta: And no one in my circles, in my family, are in tech.

Manuel: Right.

Janetta: So I don’t have anybody to bounce, you know, oh, girl, you’re doing this and that. Oh, I do this and I make that. You’re doing more than me, blah, blah. Not even within my own circle, I had no one. You know what I’m saying? So you could feel like you’re killing it and find out that, you know, they’re paying you what you allow them to pay you. Let’s just say that. I liked my employer. I liked my job. I enjoyed it.

Manuel: You learned a lot.

Janetta: I learned a ton and I ascended, you know, and they allowed me to be put into positions that I wouldn’t have gotten an opportunity maybe at another organization to be in because they went off of my who I was as an individual and my drive and then their belief that if I put her in this role, she’s going to figure it out. If she doesn’t know right now, it’s okay, she’ll figure it out. And so I had loyalty to them because of that. You know what I’m saying? Like, it’s like giving me my big shot to the next level, you know? But when I heard that and I told my husband, he was like, what? I was like, yeah, babe, they said such a thing to me that these skills I have already I should be so that pique my interest. So I’m like, okay. So tell me more about like, and she told me, you know, and I took that information and I went back and actually started looking at resumes again and job openings and things like that and seeing that things like Python were big, but things like C also were big and Visual Basic, Visual Studio and all these other tools. So there’s a gajillion basically. So I had to somehow develop skills that were softer, that weren’t as infrastructure centric, which is what I was completely, I was in the weeds with Terraform and and building Infrastructure as Code.

Manuel: CI/CD pipelines, Continuous Integration/Continous Delivery.

Janetta: GitHub, GitLab and all those things. But I wasn’t ever on the software side. And some of these jobs at the next level that I saw had those languages in them that I didn’t have any kind of experience with or as related to my job or the ability to gain that experience on the job. So my solution to that was to go to Udemy and find a web developer class. And I took the class $9.99, it’s good money. And I built a website. And I had the experience of Terraform and GitLab and GitLab Runners, Infrastructure as Code. I was doing that at work. So I knew I could build the systems that this code sat on. So my solution was to get a GitLab account, take the code from the class and build the website and serve the website on AWS. Yeah.

Manuel: That’s smart.

Janetta: Yeah. And so I took that and I made like a link and put the link on my resume to the website. And then I wrote like a small, janettadunbar.com, I don’t even think I own that anymore. I should, if I’m smart, I should own, I might, I might still be paying GoDaddy. So I went to GoDaddy and, you know, got the website and linked the website to my GitLab and linked the website to GitLab and kind of wrote a little demo description. And then, so the code was there. And then the website was there. And then I called that same recruiter back. She’s very nice. She was like, of course. She keep in touch. Of course. Right? I’m naive. Right? I’m thinking like, she’s awesome. She hooked me up. And I started interviewing with people through her. And one of the interviews was Sony PlayStation, who was local to San Diego at the time. And I ended up getting a job offer as an SRE, a Site Reliability Engineer based on the code and then the resume and, yeah, and the little website. Yeah. And I had no experience as an SRE. I’m coming solely from the infrastructure, server, admin side. And that demo got me an interview. And then the knowledge from the class allowed me to speak to the technology. And all I was doing was describing how I connected things with what I did in my project. And that got me a job offer with Sony PlayStation.

Manuel: And that idea, I mean, is that just something you came up on your own? I mean, just how did you come up with like, hey, I’m going to build this on the internet and put it as part of my resume? Because it’s one thing to pick up the skills and say, hey, I’m going to do this. I’m going to build this. But you also had the foresight right, or the intelligence to go through and say, hey, you know what? I know that I build this and pick up the skills, but I’m going to put it on my resume. I’m going to make this public and make people aware and point people to this. Because I’ve done a bunch of projects where I’ve gone through and, you know, hey, I want to pick up a skill and to learn it. But it’s usually local to my machine. Or if I do put it up, it’s like temporary and I’m like, okay, I’m done with it. It served its purpose and I’m done.

Janetta: Right. I think I felt like I needed to show proof and having words on a resume, I didn’t feel like was enough and I needed to learn it. And I’m not the type of person who can read a book and learn it. I have to actually physically get my hands on it, break it, you know, have the color show up wrong, you know, you click a button and it goes to an error page. You know, the kind of thing. And then figure out how to fix it. Databases was a thing I knew nothing about. So MongoDB, I learned that, user auth, all those things. I actually set up a website where users log in and upload photos and it goes to a database, all that. I knew I needed to know it in order to go to, in order to demonstrate based on the resume or the job descriptions I read that I knew this information. And the only way I knew to do that was to teach myself. And there’s courses for every doggone thing on the internet, right? And so a web development course, perfect. I’ve picked the highest rated one and I built exactly what the teacher told us to build. I took a little detour on it. It was like a Yelp type demo. But I made it for black historical sites. So it was a website that instead of like restaurants and pictures, it was things like the African or the Martin Luther King Center or historical sites throughout the South, really, because that’s where most of them are, related to African-American history, connected that to Google Maps. And I kind of made my own version of that, that framework, to fit my idea. And so I used that as my stepping stone, I feel like, to demonstrate that I do know these technologies and then confidently talk about them. Not just, I’m not sure, you know, but confidently say, this is how I connected this to that. Yeah.

Manuel: Okay.

Janetta: So I thought, I got to show something. I can’t just say I took a class, right?

Manuel: Right. That makes sense.

Janetta: So that’s where the idea came from. And I got a job offer. And I accepted the job, gosh, they offered me 112 and I was ecstatic. So I’m making 80 and I’m like, ooh, six figures, like, wow, I’m like super proud, right? And I accepted the job and I called my PM at my job and I told him, and they was Brent. And I said, Brent, I’m out. He’s like, what? I was like, I got another job. And I felt bad because I, you know. Manuel: You’ve been there a few years. Janetta: There’s loyalty and he was like, hold on, don’t do anything. And he hangs up the phone. It’s COVID. Don’t do anything. Hello? Like he’s gone. You know? And then probably 10 minutes later, my phone rings and it’s the COO of the company. His name is Ernie. Awesome. I’m still in touch with him. And he said, Janetta, what are you doing to me? And I didn’t have his number. So I didn’t know who he was. It’s like, what are you trying to do to me? And I was like, Ernie?

Manuel: Who is this?

Janetta: Because it’s COVID. So I haven’t seen him in six months, probably. Maybe not that long, maybe three months, four months. And I was like, Ernie, I have to, I have to they’re. How much, how much, how much to keep you, he said. And I told him, and my husband’s sitting there. He can hear it. And I said.

Manuel: Is he giving you signs, letting you know?

Janetta: Well, we had had a conversation and 125 was the number. And I originally got offered like 90 at Sony. And I told him, no, I can’t leave my job for 90. And they got up to 112. And my husband was like, well, that’s not 125. But if you want to do it, and it was the next iteration of what I wanted to do, I wanted to get into an SRE type role where it’s a hybrid type role, not just infrastructure. So he was like, yeah, go ahead. And he’s like, how much? And I told him 125. And he’s like, OK, I’ll call you back. He hung up the phone. And I was like, that’s crazy. I’m looking at my husband. He’s like, I don’t know. He calls me back. He calls me back. You got it. And I was like, what do you mean? He said, 125. I got you 125. And I was like, for real? And he said, yes. I say, you kidding me? You kidding me? That’s 45,000 more than I was making, Manny.

Manuel: Which is interesting, right? Because now, like you said, hey, you’re grossly underpaid. Hey, they’re giving you enough to where you’re like, oh, I’m killing it. I’m doing good. And it’s not until you get in that type of situation where you’re like, oh, wait a minute. I was worth this, but you were OK paying me this.

Janetta: Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Exactly.

Manuel: I’ve had something similar.

Janetta: Have you?

Manuel: So it’s funny where you get to that point where you’re like, hey, I’m going to leave. I’m going for this. And I’ve had one situation where it was the same thing. Hey, what is it going to take? Well, this is what I’m going. And I had that same thing.

Janetta: It happened to you too? I didn’t know that.

Manuel: It did. But I ended up leaving.

Janetta: So did I, didn’t I? Oh, you didn’t take the role. You didn’t take the bump.

Manuel: I didn’t take the bump. I left.

Janetta: You left. Why? You felt salty?

Manuel: So I didn’t feel salty. It was a combination of things. So at that time, I was working for a VAR. So a Value-Added Reseller.

Janetta: I don’t know what that is.

Manuel: So what a value-added reseller is, is they’re kind of like a partner.

Janetta: OK, partner.

Manuel: So they’re a partner. And what they do is they go into businesses. And the value, the reason they’re called a VAR or a value-added reseller, they resell equipment. So they’re a partner to sell. So this partner would sell NetApp Storage, VMware, and Cisco UCS. Now, the value add is they don’t just sell you the equipment. They say, hey, we’ll sell it to you. We’ll also install it, configure it, train your staff. So that’s the value that they’re adding on top of it. So that’s what I was. I was a System Engineer. And I was very thankful because I learned. So I knew VMware. I knew Cisco UCS. I knew the technologies. But one of the things that I picked up in that role was automation. Because I was like, the first time, you’re like, OK, cool. I can click on the next, next, next, next. It was a lot of that. You do that once or twice. You’re like, OK, cool. I know how to do it. Now imagine you’re doing this repeatedly for different customers. This is nonsense. And it was a week. You have a week, rack, stack, configure, train staff, and then you’re off to the next role. I was like, this is nonsense. I’m going to learn how to script all this. So that’s what I did. But at that time, when I left, I left because I learned how to script. I learned how to automate. And it was just rinse and repeat, rinse and repeat. Kind of like your scripts for your account management. So at some point, I was like, no, I’m great. And they’re like, oh, well, we can get you to that architect role. And they were starting to, oh, OK, cool. I want to be able to design. I want to do all that. The company was based out of St. Louis. They were doing something here in Vegas. But we weren’t expanding. Our sales guy had left. So it was kind of like at that point where I’m like.

Janetta: A good spot to be like, what is this?

Manuel: Well, what is this? Right? Like, what do you really envision here? Whereas this other role I was taking, they’re like, hey, we have this super large VMware environment. Cisco, you see all this stuff. You automate. You do it. We want you to standardize, automate, and do it.

Janetta: Exciting.

Manuel: So I was like, this is exciting. Like, cool, I’m telling you, I’m leaving for more money, but it’s also more money and more experience. So I ended up leaving. So I wasn’t so salty. I still keep in touch with the people there. But it was just, it was the other opportunity. But it also, at the same time, made me realize, well, wait a minute.

Janetta: Wait a minute.

Manuel: You’re willing to bump me up to this? And I think at the time, it was 100. So I might have been making, and I had to work my way up. So maybe 75, 80.

Janetta: You started at 80?

Manuel: I started a little bit lower. So the way I worked with the VAR is each certification. So in my contract, each certification I earned bumped up my base salary.

Janetta: Ooh, let’s do that.

Manuel: So again, I took this. So I was like, all right, maybe it was like, I started at, let’s say 65. Hey, we’re going to start you at 65. When you earn your VCP, that’s going to give you a $1,000 bonus. When you earn your VCAP.

Janetta: Per year. Recurring.

Manuel: Yeah, it just gets added to your base salary.

Janetta: To your base.

Manuel: So whatever it is. So once you earn that cert, it goes up. So it was like, some of them were like entry level ones. So like, hey, we’re only going to bump you a thousand. Hey, you earn these other ones, it’s like $2,500 or $3,000.

Janetta: Wow.

Manuel: So then I was like, OK.

Janetta: Rackin em up. I know you.

Manuel: Similar to you, I did that investment in myself where I said, OK, let me look at this. How am I going to pick up the skills? Because they didn’t, again, they’re based out of St. Louis. They had hardware over there that I could remote into. But then I was like, man, sometimes you need that hands-on or I want something that I can work on at any time and I don’t have to share. So I started looking at like little home servers. So I have a SuperMicro box. I did the math. I think with everything I bought, it was probably somewhere between $3,000 to $5,000. I don’t remember what it was.

Janetta: Out of pocket.

Manuel: Out of pocket. And I was like, OK, if I spend, let’s say on the high end, let’s say it was $5,000.

Janetta: $5,000.

Manuel: If I get these two certs, it pays for just this year. And that $5,000 is going to continue. So I was like, I’m going to make that investment in myself. And that’s what I did. So I bought that hardware and use that boom, boom, boom, Cisco UCS emulators. I mean, in this little, I was virtualizing everything. And that’s what I did. So I earned all these certs. So I got to the point where I was making around $75,000 to $80,000 just on bumping this up. So then I was like, all right, incrementally. And again, this is all me doing it on my own.

Janetta: Yeah.

Manuel: So when I left. Janetta: I think there’s a theme. Manuel: There is. And yeah. So when I left and I was like, hey, they’re going to give me $20,000, $25,000 more, whatever that range was. And they’re like, hold on. All right, well, again, I’ve never been in that situation.

Janetta: Yeah, me either.

Manuel: They call me back. And they’re like, hey, so we’ll match it if you stay and we’ll send you to this additional training. And I was like, oh, that’s kind of, you know, like it was enticing. I was like, well, let me think about it.

Janetta: Okay.

Manuel: I go, they’re like, well, we kind of, you know, we need to know because both places want an answer. Like just give me an hour. Like I just don’t want to make a decision to let me just sit and think about it. So I kind of did the same thing. I might have called a couple of people and I really sat down and said, okay, they’re going to send me this training, but I’m not going to get like you. I’m not going to get that hands-on experience to go through. I’m like, you know what? I’ll just, I’m going to take this to the role and yeah, that’s how that worked out.

Janetta: Yeah. man, wow. Yeah. So I, yeah, that, that’s, I bet, I bet that’s common.

Manuel: Yeah.

Janetta: Because when you’re at a place.

Manuel: And they see your value, they already know they don’t have to go, well, we got to vet this person and find out because that’s my, that’s the way I see it is. Okay. We’re going to get you in at this because we don’t know.

Janetta: Correct.

Manuel: But they’re not going to bump you up to what you should be worth once you gain those other additional skills.

Janetta: If you’re the type of person who’s going to obtain those skills on your own and upskill on your own with no, I mean, there’s incentive goals and things like that. You had your cert incentive.

Manuel: Right.

Janetta: But you probably would have upskilled anyway, just out of curiosity.

Manuel: Yeah.

Janetta: And so at some point, I believe maybe hearing your story, I didn’t know that story about you. You upskill yourself out of a position and then the perception is, well, there’s no way they’re going to double me.

Manuel: Right.

Janetta: But you’re, you’re worth double though. So if you go to them and say, I’m double, I don’t know. I don’t know.

Manuel: I don’t know about that situation either, but it is, it is interesting. So again, that, that other position I took, it was someone that I was trying to get for a VAR, right? I was trying to get them as a customer. And when I told them what we do.

Janetta: The customer snatched you.

Manuel: Yeah. So it’s someone I used to work with.

Janetta: Oh, okay.

Manuel: So, you know, I was trying to do, I was trying to be the sales guy myself, like, hey, do you want to kind of pull in and do this? And he came in, he’s like, yeah, dude, he’s like, I want you. I’m like, oh, cool. I’ll let them know. He’s like, no, no, no, I want you. So then one of the things I forgot to mention in my contract is they’re paying for these certs, right? They’re paying for training, they’re paying for all this. If I leave prior to my contract running out, right? Because I signed, I signed a contract. I don’t know if it was a one year, two year, like each one. So I think I had to go through because, again, they’re making an investment in me. So I could, I could have easily gone through, gotten all my certs and say, I’m out.

Janetta: That’s true. Okay.

Manuel: So in there, there was something that said that based on the amount of time I had been there, I would have to pay a percentage back. So when I went to the new place, so that’s when I was like, hey, give me an hour. So I hung up. I called the other people back and I said, hey, I’m willing to take it. I just went back and I reviewed my contract. And in there, it says that if I leave before, I think it might have been a two year contract, if I leave within two years, I’m responsible for an X amount of percentage. And this is what I have to pay. And I told them, I’m willing to go. You’re giving my signing bonus, but you have to cover this amount. And it’s, it’s learning that negotiation. So again, a lot of this figuring it out on my own where. I wish I had somebody to bounce this off. And I went through and initially, let’s say it was like 10 or 15 thousand dollars. Like, hey, it’s like 10 grand what I owe. All right, cool. We’ll give you a check for 10 grand. I was like, all right, I hung up. And then I was like, wait a minute, I called back and I was like, hey, this check you’re going to write me is a taxed.

Janetta: Oh.

Manuel: And they’re like, yes, it is. And I was like, that’s not going to work. You’re going to have to get more so that whatever thought that the net is, right? Like whatever I’m going to go, that’s that needs to be 10 grand. So I could pay them. I go, I don’t mind if it’s a couple hundred bucks off, like a hundred dollars. I go, I understand we’re not going to get there exactly. So then I had to kind of go back and forth and the recruiter that I was dealing with originally, she was like, ah, that’s not going to work. I’m like, all right. So I let my buddy know, hey, this and this and that he got directors involved. Cause apparently again, I kind of had an idea of what my worth is. But when you start talking to other people, no, hey, you need to get this guy. You need to make it happen. So I get a phone call, you’ll get that check. I ended up making like 300 bucks out of the, out of the deal.

Janetta: Right.

Manuel: Cause once you’re covered, but all that. And again, it’s just understanding and talking to people and learning what you’re worth is where again, I thought I’m killing it. And then this guy’s going to offer more. Like we’re going to pay you in six figures Janetta: You got a lot of money out of there.

Manuel: Like, how do you do this?

Janetta: How do you do this?

Manuel: Again, that’s kind of why I want to do this and talk to people is cause again, I have the intention of what would I want to know? What’s important for me five years ago, six years ago, 10 years ago. Again, that’s where these conversations come out. So somebody coming in, but like, I don’t want you to struggle the way I did. Right. I know some people are like, well, I had to figure it out. You figure it out. I’m not that way. Like sure. There’s some things you got to struggle. Like, Hey, I can’t teach you Python. You got to struggle and figure that out. I’ll give you tips. I’ll give you tricks, but you know, any, any information I give you, I will.

Janetta: Yeah. Yeah. Similar experience. That’s awesome.

Manuel: Cool. Well, with that, um, I really appreciate you taking the time and sharing all these stories. And I think there’s a lot of good nuggets, a lot of good information here that hopefully people will find valuable. And, uh, I know there’s still a lot of stuff we didn’t talk about. So maybe I might bring you on for a round two in a couple of months or something.

Janetta: Sounds good. We’ll talk about what, what I’m doing now.

Manuel: Yeah, that would be awesome.

Janetta: Working with you.

Manuel: Yeah.

Janetta: It’s been fun, Manny. Thank you.

Manuel: I appreciate it.