Building Your Tech Career Character: Turning Gaming Skills into Project Management Success with Jay Jackson | Ep022

Career Downloads Episode 022: Jay Jackson Takes Us Through His Journey from Entry-Level Tech to Project Management Success

In this episode, host Manuel Martinez welcomes Jay Jackson, a dynamic figure in the tech industry whose career spans sales, project management, consulting, and education. Jay opens up about his fascinating path that began at CompUSA and evolved into a successful career in project management and consulting.

Jay shares how his early experience in video games shaped his approach to problem-solving and business challenges. He explains his innovative RAKSE framework for building a professional brand:

• Reputation: The foundation of career success
• Ability: Understanding and leveraging natural talents
• Knowledge: The role of formal education and continuous learning
• Skills: Transforming knowledge into practical capabilities
• Experience: Building a track record of successful implementations

Key Discussion Points:

• Converting an entry-level cashier position into a springboard for tech career growth
• The natural progression from sales excellence to project management expertise
• Balancing teaching with consulting to stay current in technology
• Building and maintaining professional networks through authentic curiosity
• Real-world project management successes and lessons learned

Listeners will gain valuable insights into:

• How to navigate career transitions effectively
• The importance of building and maintaining a professional reputation
• Strategies for continuous learning and skill development
• Practical approaches to project management
• The value of authentic networking and relationship building

Connect with Jay Jackson:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/jayjackson2/

Connect with Manuel Martinez:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/manuelmartinez-it/

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#CareerDownloads #TechCareers #ProjectManagement #ProfessionalDevelopment

Manuel: Welcome everyone, my name is Manuel Martinez and this is another episode of Career Downloads. Where each episode, I basically hit the refresh button, bring on a different guest to really learn more about their career. To understand how they navigated it, different lessons that they’ve learned to really try and pull out actionable advice that you can use as you’re managing your own career. So, for today’s episode, I have with me Jay Jackson. So we have crossed paths on two different occasions. He has a very interesting background. He has done a number of things, different areas that we’ll touch on as we kind of go through the conversation. And I’ll let him explain that, kind of his ideas on professional branding, the different and things that he’s done, how he’s kind of navigated through different career choices and different roles. So with that, I’ll introduce Jay Jackson.

Jay: Hey, Manny.

Manuel: How you doing?

Jay: Good to see you.

Manuel: Good seeing you.

Jay: Beautiful house here, Manny.

Manuel: Thanks.

Jay: I like the setup.

Manuel: Took a little bit of work to kind of put it together, but I think overall it’s starting to look semi-professional.

Jay: Starting to, right? Yeah I like it.

Manuel: So what I’ve been doing with the guests is if you can just kind of start off, just give us your current role or position and then just kind of a summary of some of the responsibilities and things that you kind of do in those roles.

Jay: So I’ve got a lot going on. So, you know, cut me off if I’m going the wrong direction. But right now I teach at a local college, a couple of them actually. And my main role as an instructor in the Networking and Cybersecurity program and the classes I teach, I’ve taught are introduction, I like intro classes, because it’s like getting someone interested in a concept, I’ve taught introduction to Linux, Introduction to Information Systems, Project Management, Networking, and Introduction to Cloud Computing and helped develop their AWS Cloud Architect class with someone from AWS. I believe you know him.

Manuel: I do.

Jay: Great guy. [Laughter] So, I’ve done that and I’ve helped with the project management at the grad level here at local college. So that’s my teaching. And then I also consult, because teachers don’t make a lot of money, so it’s good to have that extra income, right? And consulting, I generally do project management. And that’s everything from managing software projects, which I’m doing primarily now, to implementations. I’ve done, as you know, you’ve helped me out on some data center implementations, little data center implementations. And also, if a company has an enterprise application that needed help implementing, people think that I go to Best Buy, buy software, install it, and then we’re done. That’s not how it works, right? [Laughter] There’s a lot that goes on to make the implementation successful. So we do the soup to nuts entire life cycle of the implementation. And really odd things, like every now and then I get a call saying, hey, I need to make a website, and I’ll help out manage it, or I’ll do myself, if it’s really simple. That’s because I’m interested in projects. So whatever becomes interesting, and it sounds great, and I like the person I’m working with, that’s what I’ll do. I also have a couple of companies I’m a part of, I’m a part owner of. One of them is a car dealer wholesaler. And we’re looking to, you know, technology is like evolving so rapidly now. For those people who are leveraging the newest stuff, AI, APIs, they have an advantage over those, especially legacy industries, like car sales, pretty old school. So I’m working on a project where we’re trying to leverage APIs and AI to understand the true value of a car and what it’ll take to get it to a certain level. So working on that project, and I’m also doing house flipping in Indiana with my brother, part of that, which that one’s not really interesting too much, technology too that we’re trying to, but it’s been pretty messy. So, and then I’ve decided hobby stuff that I do every now and then, like refurbish electronics from Amazon Returns at the eBay store. I still do, but I’ve kind of slowed down on that. And everything I do kind of use it as a mechanism to teach students if they’re interested. So I generally will bring a student on to help out and they get the experience and I get the energy from them, the excitement of doing something new. It’s kind of a win-win.

Manuel: It’s very interesting, like how you’re using all these different avenues. And similar to you, right? I see a lot of these businesses and when they’re not leveraging technology, I had another guest on where we’ve talked about it, like where she was working at a hospital, like she got out of tech, started working in the hospital, but she saw a lot of inefficiencies like where technology, process, procedure, like things that were used to, and especially you, you know, with project management, like, hey, here’s steps that we follow, just building a lot of efficiency and you being able to go through. And like you said, the auto industry, like, you know, most people wouldn’t think that that’s somewhere where AI and, you know, APIs would leverage, but the way that you’re doing it, it sounds like you’re trying to kind of, when you say what it would take to get there. So are you kind of understanding, hey, based on mileage, condition, what is it at now? And kind of to bring the value up for the resell, like 10 grand, hey, what are the items that would be needed based on, I’m assuming you’re using AI to just kind of do research for you, right?

Jay: Yeah, so, you know, information gathering and making decisions takes time, right? And also, you know, just to walk through it, you go to the auction, right? You see the car and you need to know the value of the car when you’re bidding on it, because you want to take the car, this is triage, right? I’m sorry, arbitrage, this is arbitrage, which I, you know, I’ve done that for a while. You take something, you add some value to it and sell it for more. And the more value you add to it, obviously the more margin you make. But in order to do that, you need to know the potential of whatever you’re getting, whether it be electronics, car, anything really. And that’s kind of hard to do if you don’t have experience in the domain. And, but the information is out there. And also, an auction is kind of a fast-paced environment. So you need to make quick decisions and very time consuming. And I have a very good friend of mine who kind of showed me the ropes, helped him open up his dealership here in 2007. And it’s a lot of work. You get there early at the auction, you have to like do a bunch of stuff. But all that’s been done forever and there’s data out there that will suggest that. So what if we could do that programmatically? Not only with one auction, like across the country. And then I can make quick decisions. Even if I’m not right 100% of the time. I save all that time and having to go to the auction and so on and so forth. And if you do that, you have a lot more success, I think, than if you do everything in the kind of old school manual way. So the companies now are realizing that, hey, if I want to have a platform, like an online auction platform, and I want to make it attractive to everyone, then I need to be able to share my data somehow. So everyone has API somewhere on the roadmap. And the larger ones already have them out. And that gives a whole new ballgame. So all the dealers who are still going there doing handshake with the auction person, they slip them a 100 to help them out, have someone there scouting which cars or themselves which cars are valuable or not. That’s all going to waste your energy if you can do everything programmatically.

Manuel: I’m going to go back a little bit now And just if you can kind of tell me kind of where you kind of grew up and what eventually got you interested into technology and kind of what started you down your career path.

Jay: Yeah, so I grew up back east. I’m from the Maryland, Virginia area, DC area. And from day one, I’ve always loved video games, right? Still do. I mean, I can’t play them as much, but I always love video games. And true gamers who I consumed as many games as I could, from as many platforms or consoles as I could. It was a game I was interested in it, right? Everything from like text-based RPGs in DOS or Prodigy, whatever, all the way up to, you know, the AAA Call of Duty type games. I’m interested in playing it, you know? So, you know, to understand how to play games again, I’m working. You got to understand technology, especially the high -end computer games. So, an example of this would be Warcraft II. Warcraft II was one of the first games that I played that you could play multiplayer across computers. So, I have six brothers and sisters, and we’re all gamers for the most part. Except for one. I don’t know where she’s not a gamer, but everyone else is. And we want to play each other in Warcraft II, so we had to figure out how to network them. And no one taught me. I had to figure it out. So, we, you know, went to the library. This is like ’93. So, before the internet came out, we had to go to the library, get all the equipment, try a bunch of stuff. IP addresses. Okay, this is a static IP. I need a static IP. Okay, I need a crossover cable, because this cable doesn’t work. And, you know, we grind it out, and eventually we figured it out, and boom. Now we’re playing multiplayer Warcraft II, which is like heaven, you know? So, that got me in technology just because I wanted to play video games, really. And, you know, I like technology. I think it’s cool the way technology works. And then, from a career path, I really didn’t know what I wanted to do from a career path. And we can get into that. That’s like a whole other side conversation. Do you want to get into that now, or do you want to talk about something else?

Manuel: No, I mean, we can talk about it now.

Jay: So, in high school, I just wanted a job. I didn’t care where I worked. So, I worked at McDonald’s. You know, it’s fun. Anyone who’s had to work past food knows how much fun that is. But, where I worked at McDonald’s is one of the busiest ones. In Rockville, Maryland. Very busy area town. So, you get a lot of people coming through. And I was there two years, and, you know, I became like a valuable resource to the store. And I like people. I just do. I’ve always liked people. And there’s a lot of people you don’t like working fast food, but in general, I like people. And, across the street from McDonald’s was CompUSA, which was like Best Buy for computers. Back in the day, you probably remember it.

Manuel: I remember them.

Jay: So, I crossed the street with CompUSA, and one of their managers drove through the drive -thru, and he was like, hey, you always have a smile on your face. I know this job sucks. It’s like, how much do you make? And I told him I’d made $5.70 an hour. And I wasn’t like in a lead. So, I was like, you know, not making a ton of money. He was like, okay, come over to CompUSA. We need cashiers. I’ll pay you $6.50. And I was like, okay, like I decided to do that. And I was graduating high school at this point. So, I was 17. So, I went over to CompUSA, and now I have access to all this technology, because it’s a retailer, and they have discounts, and all this stuff happens. So, that really accelerated my interest in technology, because I get to play with all this stuff, which is so critical, because, you know, we work with students, right? And I asked the students the same question, like, how did you get in technology? And a lot of them say I was just exposed to it, because a lot of the kids are technical, and don’t know they are until they start playing with technology. And it’s expensive hobby they get into. And a lot of the kids don’t have those type of resources. I didn’t. And giving them a way to be exposed to it, so they know that this is kind of my jam, is really cool.

Manuel: A very important part there, right, is exposure. And I think just exposure to, not even just technology, but different things. So, you know, like my dad was not into technology. Like, he was, they did construction, right? So, he was a block layer. But one of the things that he exposed me to early was a lot of the machinery and equipment. Like, things would break, and we’d have to go and help and fix them. So, that mindset of, like, repairing things. And it eventually went into, like, not even just equipment, but even just vehicles. Like, oh, we’ve got to change the brake pads on this. Like, oh, okay, well, how do we do that? You know, showing you that entire process. Hey, how to bleed brakes. How to do all these different things to then, okay, we get home. We need to repair a light switch. So, it’s not technology. It’s electronics. It’s different things, but exposure. So, that when I did get exposed into technology and PCs, I didn’t have the fear of, oh my gosh, you know, like, I don’t know how to take this apart, right? Like, you start to develop, like, a thought process. That exposure, I’m like, oh, okay, well, there’s a screw here. Let me take a couple of these screws. What does this release? And so, when I got into being initially as a PC technician, like, I didn’t have that fear, like, that exposure. I wasn’t confident, but again, you know, not having the resources to buy a bunch of computers, but eventually, you know, like, just kind of doing that correlation of, like, oh, it’s an electronic. I’ve taken apart blenders and radios and different stuff like that.

Jay: You also make a good point, an important point, in my opinion, is, working with your dad, you got access to that knowledge, but also, it was kind of a safe place to learn, because I’m a big fan of mistakes. My wife calls me a professional failure, because you learn from mistakes. Knowledge is really error correction. And if you’re in a place where you can take things apart, and if you don’t put it back together perfectly, you’re not, like, fired, that’s a great place. So, you learn, like, if I tug on it this way, it doesn’t mean I’m breaking it and some things take harder tug, things like that, right? And with technology, you got to know how to break it and put it back together, but not cause damage to the company you’re working for. And, you know, school and working with relatives or whatever, is it, you know, preparing things, really, is a great place to pick up those skills, which is one of the reasons why I always like repairing things, because, you know, they’re already broken, so it’s so hard, you know, and just try to put it back together, right?

Manuel: Right. And almost sometimes, for me, like, to a detriment, right? Like, I see stuff, I’m like, oh, I can fix that. And my wife’s like, yeah, but just have somebody else do it. Like, you can’t repair all 20 or 25 things that you see, right? So, it’s just kind of an understanding to, like, that process. But like you said, you are going to fail a lot. But I think the more that you fail over time, you learn, and you either fail faster, right? Like, you’re able to make those decisions, like, I can tug, you can tell, like you said, like, hey, this, if I pull this a little bit harder, I need to, because this is how it’s going to come off, or if I pull this harder, I’m going to break it. So, you start to kind of build that knowledge base of, like, hey, this is what I should do, and this is kind of how I move forward. So, as you’re exposing students to this, and are you kind of doing the same thing, exposing the technology, and as you’re asking them, like, what are some of, you know, there is a barrier to entry. So, what are they, how are you helping them kind of move past that?

Jay: Well, you know, it’s tough in a formal learning environment, because, you know, you have a structure, and students are kind of been indoctrinated to this style of learning, which is like, you follow instructions, and I’ll give you an A, that I give you. So, my classroom’s a little different, where I put out questions that really don’t have an answer, because I’m hoping that we’ll get the wrong answer, and then we’ll fail to the right answer type thing, and that drives some students nuts. So, you got to really set your classroom up early in a culture that, you know, failure is appreciated, and we’re kind of expecting it. And still, it’s like pulling teeth sometimes with some students. Some students come to me and say, like, don’t call on me, you know, because, you know, I call hoping for the wrong answer. And so, I ask really vague questions, and some students, like, really cause anxiety. I was like, in technology, you got to get over that, because you’re not going to have all the answers. And knowing that, but things change so rapidly, if you have all the answers now, you’re not going to have it next month. So, you got to be okay with having to fumble through getting to the right answer, right?

Manuel: Yeah.

Jay: As a project manager, you kind of have to know a lot about everything, really? So, I really just know, like, I’m in a project, I know who can do what, what I can do, and if there’s a gap, I got to find a resource like you to fill it in. And, you know, the way I’ve known that is by trying, like, oh, this is way more complicated, or, oh, okay, this is easy. Even still, every now and then you get, you know, kind of heart attack moments, because you don’t have the experience. And which is why you got to set things up where you can revert back to a state no matter what, right?

Manuel: And learning to troubleshoot. So, you know, you mentioned that going through the library and kind of playing around with that, having exposure, you know, at CompUSA. So, is did you know that it was troubleshooting and understanding it? Because, like you said, I think a lot of times people are indoctrinated to a specific way of learning.

Jay: Yeah.

Manuel: And when it deviates, that critical thinking or that troubleshooting, a lot of times, I don’t, you know, because I also, you know, similar to you, right? I teach, and I see a lot of this. If I follow these steps, and it’s not working right away, it’s like, step five doesn’t work. Okay, well, why? Right? Like, try and figure it out and understand. So, is that something that you’ve, did you know that you were developing troubleshooting skills? Or is it just something that you were determined to get to, like, an end state? So, how did you kind of manage that?

Jay: If we’re talking, like, back when I was playing games as a kid, I had no formal framework of how I was approaching things. It’s trying to figure it out. We call it grinding, you know? And that element’s missing in today’s world. It really is. If I can’t get to the answer and it’s not linear, people give up. And I don’t know why, other than maybe it’s indoctrinated, they want the quick answer now, pass the least resistance. And, like, you’re missing, like, so much if you grind it out. So, I didn’t know it was formally, that’s what I was doing. But now, all I do, and I kind of look for that. And it’s always this period of rumbling, when you’re learning something new, and you’ve got to kind of expect it, you know, you’re going to climb a mountain, you can’t be like, okay, let’s climb a mountain, and then you start from the bottom and there at the top. There’s always the climb, the struggle that you have to do to figure it out. So, I was like, I actually look for the struggle. If it’s too easy, I feel like I missed something. You know, that makes sense.

Manuel: Yep, it definitely does. So, then now, as you’re working at CompUSA, you’re getting this exposure. What kind of? Sounded like you were graduating high school around that time? So, what was kind of the path forward from there?

Jay: Sure. So, I, like, had no plan. Both my parents didn’t go to college or graduate from college, I should say. So, I didn’t, they weren’t like, go to college or like, do whatever you want type thing. So, I had no path. My McDonald’s actually paid for my first semester of college right before I quit. So, they were super happy about that, because they expected me to hit their management track. So, I had money to go to the college. So, I was like, let me just sign up so I can get this money. So, I signed up for the community college there by the CompUSA, and I was a cashier. And that really framed my career, really. It’s interesting how that works. First of all, I always work hard. That’s been indoctrinated me, and like, I feel like I have to work hard. And I was a cashier, and this is probably one of the top three busiest stores. It was in Montgomery County, and anyone knows the county system in the United States. Montgomery is Maryland, Fairfax is Virginia, and they’re right next to each other, and those are the richest counties in the country. That’s right, the senators live and all that. So, CompUSA was one of the busiest in the country, the most revenue-generating, because everyone has money. So, as a cashier, you’re like working nonstop, because there’s always huge lines. This is before Amazon and the internet, so they could go somewhere to get stuff. This is also when warranties on products came out. So, it’s like, I buy a printer, I can buy extended warranty, three-year warranty or whatever. You know, Best Buy, you know, people ask that question, or someone asks now, it’s on the screen, do you want a warranty? Yes, no, what does that even mean? So, but they asked cashiers to ask that question, and I thought that was part of the job. I didn’t realize that that was something extra, so I did it. And so, someone had a printer walk by, say, hey, we have a three-year warranty, it costs 30 bucks, or something like that. Do you want it? Yes or no? That was my, yes or no, do you want the warranty? And I found out later, for everyone, I found out later that you got paid a commission if they said yes. And so, I was making $6.50 an hour, and I was making $18 an hour selling warranties. That’s when I realized, wow, you make way more in sales than you make in just like your regular job. So, it’s interesting, we had a group meeting, and they’re like, who’s this kid? That was me. And I raised my hand, the general manager came out, and he’s like, you’re like one of the top warranty cashiers in the country, like what are you doing? And I was like, I asked them if they own a warranty, that’s like literally all I’m doing, I’m not like pitching it or anything, to ask them, do you want a warranty?

Manuel: So, you weren’t even giving them an explanation of what was involved unless they asked, so you were just saying, do you want a warranty? Yes or no?

Jay: Pretty much.

Manuel: And that’s it.

Jay: Yeah, pretty much. And they asked, like what does that mean? I’m like, well, if you have a problem, for that particular one, you carry it here, or Warrantech was the company that we used, as like, this is before I knew, like, what the real story is with these warranties. So, again I was naive I was 17, they were like, yeah, you call this number and they help you. Okay. Most people said no, but some said yes. All right. So, $18 an hour is like three to six warranties an hour, depending on the type of warranty. And we’re so busy, I always had people in my line. So, I was like, me, back to the story, General Manager says, who’s his kid? It’s like me. And he was like, you’re like one type of people in the country. So, they had just started a small business sales part of CompUSA, kind of like a corporate part, where you’re selling small businesses, they already had a corporate, but they were trying to separate large companies with small business. So, they wanted to move me to that. So, when I was turning 18, so now I went from cashier to like corporate sales. And I kind of did a grand tour of the store before I got there. So, I went to the parts counter. So, I got to learn about memory and hard drives. Then I went to the back hardware sections, so I could sell computers and learn about computers. And then I ended up in corporate sales, which is wild because 18 year old and you know, as an 18 year old male, you’re still brain still forming. And I had the ability to do things like change margins. And on our company, on our store and other stores. So, like really a trusting role. So, now I’m like going from $6 an hour I’m making like $40 to $60 because it’s commission based, which is crazy. So, I had enough money to move out of my house as an 18 year old. Also, going to college is very tough because I’m like, why am I going to college and making all this money? So, I had to have money to pay for my car, pay for my own stuff. And a lot of that I spent buying cool electronics. I bought the Sony Mavica, I don’t remember that. It was a digital camera on the first ones that used a floppy disk. So, I didn’t have to do all this hoopla to download it. Just boom floppy disk and you got the image. It was like a grand. It’s like some crazy luxury. And this kid has it because he blows his paycheck on it type of thing. So, that kind of shaped my career. It’s like, okay, you make me make a lot of money in sales. And I’ve had the personality for it, which really was tenacity. Because you know, in sales, people think that they’re like, everyone’s a used car salesman. It’s like, no, there’s way different profiles. And with technology, especially, my personality works. We’re just in the facts, information, right? So, that’s kind of where my technology career started was corporate sales for CompUSA. And I failed out of my first semeser of college because I stopped going to class. I’m like, what’s the point of going to class?

Manuel: As you’re picking up this, you know, the sales acumen, right? Going through as a cashier did, and I guess a lot of it’s just naive, right? But was there anything when people would say no to you? Like, did you take offense to that? Or, you know, and especially as you’re moving now from that into a corporate sale. So, how did you deal with, a lot of people will call it rejection. I don’t think it’s rejection. They’re just rejecting that offer, right?

Jay: So, I’ve done a lot of sales. And that type of sales was didn’t burn at all. Because I’m like, giving information. Do you want to warrant it? Here’s what it does. Yes or no. And there wasn’t any pressure for any numbers. So, no one’s saying you have to do this. No one’s saying, oh, here’s how you do objection handling, none of that. It’s just like, whether you want to do it or not. And no one else was doing it, which blew my mind. Because like, just ask them if they want a warranty it and you get $3 an hour extra. That’s crazy. Or more. So, I didn’t feel the burn at all. And when I went to corporate sales, this is the late 90s. So, it’s like ’97. So, it’s like tech boom central. And everyone has a lot of money because the economy is screaming. So, it wasn’t really sales. It’s really order taking. It’s like, how do you take orders best? And I started to learn all the nuances of taking orders. Because, you know, there’s always a higher level than the level you’re on. So, for me, it was, remember, this is before the internet. So, people would call in. And you get access to the main line from that, from where I was. You know, you had a phone and you have the lines on the side. One of them is like your line. One of them is corporate sales. One of those is the main line. So, when I had downtime, people was kind of chitchat, smoke break, you know, hit on the cashier. I would start answering the main line. And if it was a, if it was a, someone from a business, if it was someone from like, have a question about, you know, something commercial or, or have a complaint or whatever, I would just transfer them out to someone else. And sometimes, you know, as an immature person, I’d transfer them somewhere crazy. This is for giggles. If I liked them, you know, it’s like, let me transfer them to like, Uzbekistan. But if they’re a company, I would answer their question because I, you know, I was pretty knowledgeable about the stuff because I made the rounds and was interested. And I’d say, hey, when you come in, I’m gonna have it ready for you. So, that way I got credit for the sale. So, my numbers were bonkers because I was stealing from their retail section of the store because I’m supposed to be selling to companies only. But that was, I was, because I was answering the main line. And I was like, hey, do you work for a company? And then when they came in, I had a cart ready for them with their deal and I had a slip that had my name on it. Boom. I found an angle that, that worked. But, you know, I didn’t have to do that because everyone’s buying. It’s really just like managing who’s buying what type of thing. So, I would even categorize that as sales, really. It was order taking. But I got a taste of how much money you could make.

Manuel: But even though, I mean, like you said, it was order taking. But again, you found that initiative. And I think it’s just that it sounds like you were very curious, right? So, it’s that curiosity of like, instead of, especially at that age, right? Like, you know, like under 20, you know, like you’re probably not even 20 yet, right? Or right around there, 18 to 20, to have that mindset of to go through and say, all right, hey, like you said, I can go do all everything else that other 18 year olds are doing and goof off. But you were like, hey, what can I do to kind of pull it, even though it was order taking, was it just to try and pull in additional?

Jay: Yeah. Stay busy.

Manuel: Okay.

Jay: And that’s one of the things that the gamer mentality I like, is like everything’s a game to me. Like, everything’s a game. So, this is a game. Like, how do I beat it, essentially, because you play a game like there’s always nuances to beat it. And back in the day, you probably remember this was Nintendo, like you played and if you died, you had to start over. So, you really had to map out what you’re going to do if you want to beat the game type thing. And you look for the nuances. Okay, if I go here, this happens type thing. So, everything is, I project everything like a game is fun. And I feel I find the levers and that was one of them, you know. And there’s always like the baseline game, but there’s also other stuff you can do and working glitches, you know.

Manuel: And now when you’re doing this, is it you’re doing something different? Did this similar to when you were a cashier? Did this help kind of put you towards the top as one of the top, you know, small business vendors?

Jay: Yeah, it was. And really, I thought I was lucky. I didn’t think I was the top. I thought, okay, I’m in one of the richest counties in the United States in the world, the United States. And I like lucked into this small business role. So, yes, I’m one of the top people in the country, but not because I’m great. It’s because I happen to be in the right circumstance, which, you know, that’s happened a lot in my career. And then eventually I realized, wait a minute, other people are in this and there aren’t near at the top. So maybe there’s something I’m doing right. But like for the first 10 years of selling, I was like, well, I got lucky that I’m in this role, because I’ve always done well in sales. I’ll tell you that transition into tech, because as you remember, you had a couple good years where things are booming, and then there was a crash, right? And you could see the crash coming. So I was at CompUSA until ’99. So I started in ’97 and ’99, and the tech was crashing. So CompUSA was a poorly run company, it was. So they got bought or someone took over and he’s like, I don’t like the small business idea. So they cut the department and lost all their talent, just like that. So I was out of a job all of a sudden. So I had a friend that worked at a other retailer, Micro Center, and I started working there. But I kind of saw the writing on the wall. And so I was getting tired. I was back in retail. I was in kind of like their parts area. And it paid really well, actually. And that’s why I got introduced to big commissions, because Micro Center was a really generous company. And they, a lot of companies, they dealers, I’m sorry, manufacturers like Xerox will pay extra money for like an end cap or to incentivize people to sell. A lot of times companies will take that for themselves. Micro Center would translate it to the translate would give it to the reps, the people on the floor. So one point, this is the one thing I’ll remember that is one point Xerox had a deal where if you sell one of their printers, you’re SPIF was crazy, like $50 per printer. And our department would pool it. So when I heard that, none of the other printers existed, like your only choice to buy is from Xerox. And we ended up selling a ton, like selling out all of our Xerox. So my commission check was $10,000 as a 19 year old. And I was like, crazy, couldn’t believe I got that. So I got a case of big commissions, and I immediately blew it all. Like terrible decision making. And I got introduced to taxes because I knew it was coming. By the time I guess I spent it in my head already. By the time I got it, my take home, I was like five grand, like cut in half because of my age and where I live. But I was like, man, this is great. But things were going sideways because of the economy. And retail, you know, it’s tough, you’re work long hours and deal with a lot of care need type people. So I was like, you know, understand technology, let me just figure out if I can move to that. And it seems like it’s more interesting. So I got my A+, Net+ and really just by getting, this is what internet was out now. So this is studying online. You recall brain dumps? Remember that?

Manuel: Yeah.

Jay: Brain dumps is great. So brain dumps gives you access to tests. So like when the first like MeasureUp type place. And I just spent like, every night, I would spend three to six hours taking tests. Really, not even understand the concepts. Net+ was tough. Like I didn’t understand what I was memorizing. Like UDP, what is this? But I know it does this because the question says it does. And I’m getting my A+ Net+ in like a month, both of them. And back then that meant something. So I took my A+ Net+ and that with, you know, contact who knew me into a $22 an hour job working for an MSP as a tech. And that was kind of my first like real tech job.

Manuel: And when you say that, you know, you kind of use that contact. So did you like apply for position? Did they just kind of call you in or kind of what was the process to kind of get that job apart from having that contact? But did you know, did they tell you, Hey, get your A+, Net+? Or like you said, you just knew that, Hey, having these is going to open up opportunities for me.

Jay: Well, I like talking to people, you know, and hearing their story in Micro Center and CompUSA had as a tech area, like Geek Squad type thing. And they’re all people who are starting their career in tech, like they wanna do tech. And I like always back then liked fixing broken stuff. So I see what they’re doing. And I one thing I missed out of this is, you know, being friends with them and also the way the retailers work back then, if someone returned an item or is broken, or they abandoned it from the tech shop, there’s a section of the store where they just put it for sale. And that’s a nuance I found. I was like, Oh, and they tell us to get rid of it. They don’t care how much margin they make or anything, because they’ve written it off already. So I would buy like a ton of the broken computers and then fix them and resell them. And I made a lot of money doing that, like a lot. And I knew how to aptitude forward is interesting talking to techs. I that’s where I learned, okay, we’re all trying to get our A+, we’re all trying to get our Net+. And some of them took them years, because they’re afraid to fail the test. Like I, when I decided to do it, I immediately took it and failed it. So I knew what was on it type thing, studied and then retook it, which is still the way I approach test taking really. And so I was like, Okay, well, that’s what that’s what made me decide I need to get my A+, Net+. And then, you know, because I talked to everyone, I kind of put it out there that I was looking for a tech job. And a friend of my dad’s is the one that pulled me in, says, Okay, I’m looking for an apprentice to help who was looking to start their tech their tech career, who’s willing to work hard, and I had reputation of someone who worked hard. So that’s how I got that first position, really.

Manuel: And I want to kind of go back and dig a little bit deeper onto that your test taking process, because similar to you. And I’ve run into other people where they’re just, there’s that anxiety of test taking, I get it, nobody really likes to take a test. But to me, there’s no like if I decide I’m going to take a test, do you go through and actually schedule the exam? Do you study first? People are different. I know that early on in my career, I’m like, Okay, well I’m going to study for this exam. And I would study almost forever, just because I’m studying, but I’m just like, Okay, I don’t want to, you know, it’s not that I don’t want to fail, but I’m just like, Okay, I want to be prepared. I noticed that if I just actually scheduled the exam and put in a dead end date, right? Like, Okay, I’m going to take it in two months. I’m a lot more disciplined at studying. And then similar to you, if I go and I fail, I have a better understanding. So the next time maybe I’m not taking two months, maybe I schedule it a month out two weeks, three weeks, like something shorter, and just that repetitive process. And now I’ve gotten to the point similar to you. I know if I say, Hey, I’m going to take this exam, I’ll book it no more than about a month, month and a half out. And I’ll just kind of knock it out. And I’m not, I don’t have that anxiety of, Oh my God, am I going to pass? I’m not going to pass. Like, and I know some people have that. Obviously, it sounds like you didn’t. Was there a thought process behind that? Or is it just like everything else? It sounds like you’re just, you’re pretty open to just trying things like, Okay, I’m going to go try it. And if it doesn’t work out, I’ll do it again. And I’ll do it again.

Jay: So there’s a little bit leading to that. And to answer your question is, I’m the same as you. If nowadays, I don’t have to take as many exams. But if I don’t schedule it, it’s hard to take it seriously. You know, so I find myself having to schedule it, if I’m going to take it seriously, and tell people. So I just ran the same thing for anything that’s tough. So I just ran this last biggest marathon piece, I’ve run marathons, I don’t schedule it and tell everyone I’m going to run it, then I’ll just like back out, because there’s a lot of training involved in that. So that makes things easier. But back then I just, if I decide I’m going to do it my brain, it’s like a have to do it, you know, type thing, or it’ll start eating at me. So back then I just decided I was going to do it and did it type thing. But so back then it was my process. I had to take it first, because there wasn’t a lot of information out there on the internet. Nowadays, it’s, there’s so much information MeasureUp all these other tools, Udemy. And what I found is if you can get 80% or higher on those tools, you’re probably going to pass the test. So that’s how I know when I’m ready is when I get around 80% on those types of things. And it’s usually pretty right. So that’s my process. Now it’s like, okay, I got to take this, like I got to take some this this fall for the college I’m teaching at. And so I’m going to schedule them during the break. I’m going to do the test things until I hit 80. And it’s a lot of refresher now. So it’s real, it’s easy. It’s not like it’s, I’m learning it from scratch type thing. And then when I had 80, I’ll go take the test type thing. And you can take tests remotely now, which is great. I don’t have to go anywhere. So and usually there’s, you know, availability instantly. So I can take it like 24 hours. So it’s not like I have to plan. So I can just wait till I’m ready and then schedule it. However, if some tests are dragging, then I’ll schedule it and know it’s coming and tell people when I’m taking this. And now the pressure’s on, right?

Manuel: So it goes back to like, like that gaming system, right? So you’re telling people to kind of go through a game and say, okay, hey, is it competitive or is it just to keep you accountable?

Jay: Accountable, not competitive. Although competitive is fun, but you know, you’re going to have a hard time finding opponents. I had one student who just loved taking certifications. And he’s the person that I would try to compete against. And this student was awesome. He, while he was in community college CSN, he got a CCIE, which I had never heard of that before, the CCIE. There’s only like 70,000 globally of that. And before he graduated community college, he went ahead and got his, that’s a maniac. So he was like getting a cert a month, like, which are am I getting this month type thing? And for him, I would compete. Just to keep, you know, feed off each other’s energy type thing. But generally speaking, people aren’t like lining up to get certifications, right? Especially at our age.

Manuel: It’s true because I’ve, I tried that recently, you know, like trying to do some of the AWS certs and, you know, people at first might, you know, get competitive, but like you said, at our age, and it’s more of the experience and everything else that where it’s not as much of a priority. So I find it harder to compete, but that drives me because just telling people, like that accountability doesn’t work for me. Sometimes I’ve noticed that if I almost the exact opposite happens, if I talk about it, and I’ve read that there’s that, there’s something in your brain, right? Where if you think about it, or if you say it a lot of times you get that, like that dopamine hit of like, oh, it’s almost like accomplishing the same thing, right? Like if I say, I’m, oh, I’m going to go buy this thing. If you think about it for a day or two, you get the same hit as if you were to buy it. And I’ve noticed that if I go and tell somebody, like, oh, I’m going to go take this exam, I go take this exam, I won’t do it. Just because I’ve said it, I’m like, I already told people and if I don’t do it, like, I don’t care what they think one way or the other. So instead, I actually have to not tell people and just go and take it.

Jay: Okay. I’m the opposite. So if I tell someone and I do it, then I feel, I feel like they think, oh, this guy’s a liar. You know, he just says things doesn’t do them. So that’s the pressure for me. It’s like, I made the commitment.

Manuel: So now they pull you in. So, you know, you get into this role and working for an MSP. So what is, what are some of the job functions is stuff related to like A+ and Net+? So you’re just doing basic installation networking.

Jay: That’s a great experience. And the people I work with are cool. And you see a lot of interesting people out there. And people who you wouldn’t think are techie, he actually are. So it was building PCs. So back then you built your own PCs. As MSP had a lot of government contracts, which most of them do in that area. So government buys a bunch of PCs. They don’t necessarily want to buy Dell, they’ll buy regular custom ones. So we built those. And I got really good where I could build a PC. Like just, we had an area with all the parts lined up in bins. And then I was put it together. And it took me like half an hour to build a PC from scratch, which was pretty good. I thought at least. And then a lot of what was going on back then was conversion from BNC to coax to RJ45. So I pulled cable. And, you know, they wanted young people to pull cable because it sucks, you know. Summertime, it’s 100 degree heat. There’s like abestos in the roof. We’re at an old school. You got to pull out the old cable and pull the new one. And you got to find someone who’s nimble to go up there and do it. So I pulled cable and punched it down. So that’s kind of the most of the things I was doing with that type of stuff.

Manuel: And then you took that experience and then eventually kind of did what with that. So now ou’ve got sales experience, you’ve got a little bit of technical experience.

Jay: So I got used to sales, which is a really comfortable job, you know, and bigger commission. So I was making $22 an hour as a tech, which is not bad, but I was making more in sales and doing way less work. So I was like, you know what? And I had failed out of college twice at this point. And a lot of my friends weren’t doing cool stuff. And my grandma was moving from Hawaii to Las Vegas. And she’s like, Hey, why don’t you come out here and finish college out here, like get rid of distractions and come out to Vegas. And I was like, you know, it’s interesting. Actually, let me go ahead and do that. So my brother and I moved out of Maryland to Las Vegas, help them move all their stuff from Hawaii into a house here and live with them. And then went to UNLV and CSN. And got my degree in MIS and thinking that I was going to continue on my tech career. And I immediately got a job making like $11 an hour on campus because I have my A+, Net+ which is great. I mean, it’s crazy. $11 an hour is kind of what students make nowadays, like 20 plus years later. So it’s like, how is anyone surviving nowadays? It’s like, mind blowing me. But now it’s out of the student worker. And at night, I would wait tables. I worked at Applebee’s or I ended up selling cars because that made way more money for CarMax. So I worked during the day and then at night I’d sell. And when I graduated, finally, I had a couple opportunities to be a tech. And I just hated it because I got exposed to what tech’s actually do, especially for larger companies like university. And there’s so much downtime made me nuts. I remember when my first week there, and you get your work orders, right? So like plan my day out, get my work orders, knock them all out in two hours. And then the person running the area called me said, Hey, let me talk to you. I was like, Okay, it’s like, he’s gonna give me work orders or give me kudos or whatever. He said, Hey, listen, you got to make those last all day, because I don’t have enough work for everyone. So you got to make those I want to have you just idle. So you got to make those last all day. I was like, What? Like, this is not what I’m used to, you know, in retail, you got to work, you know, and when you’re working like for MSP, you work your butt off. So I was bored most of the time. And, you know, I’m bored because problems start trolling people, you know, so I found all the best ways to troll your coworkers. You know, like, back then it was to get a screenshot of their desktop, and then change the background to match the screenshot. So none of the icon’s work. That was fun one.

Manuel: Changing their background just to something different. I remember doing that. And then still the same thing. So we would change their background. And then, you know, something else, like, you know, like, Care Bears, Hello Kitty, just something, something different. And then do that same screenshot. And they couldn’t click it. They were trying to change their, change it back to whatever it was. And they’re, you know, it’s it there.

Jay: Put tape over the mouse. So the mouse doesn’t work. Change the DNS, the local DNS file. So go somewhere crazy, like Google.com will go somewhere crazy, because it looks locally first.

Manuel: Obviously, that slow pace. And I wonder if just the exposure of like the university, right, because I do know that sometimes, and while it’s not, it’s public sector, right. So a lot of times that public sector is a lot slower for that. And you didn’t, I know you didn’t like being idle, but you didn’t use that time, sound like everywhere else to kind of figure out what else I can do to either grow my knowledge, my experience, my,

Jay: This is my early 20s. And I wasn’t super responsible at that point. And it’s, it’s weird. It’s like, you go to college and you have expectations. So when I was learning technology and being exposed to it, I just wanted to get as much knowledge as I can. Everything was cool. Everything stopped being as cool. When I was in college, I was kind of expecting, okay, I’m going to college and I’m going to have, you know, a comfortable job because they’re going to see I have a degree, which is not true as you know. And like, I’ve always worked somewhere where I was exposed to a lot of people, even the MSP, I was always constantly meeting people and having conversations when you’re a tech, you know, you’re in your office. And I went from being building PCs to, you know, helping troubleshoot professor problems to the NOC and the NOC was awful. Because I just watch blips all day, or maybe go and like recable something. So I was like, it sucks. So I was bored in that respect to it wasn’t having any interaction. And then when I graduated, the type of jobs I was getting, you know, I was going to apply for like 40 grand in the 40 grand to 45 grand range. And I was like, man, I made this when I was like 18. I was like, I don’t want to, you know, what’s up? So I, you know, this is the economy wasn’t great here. This was like early 2000s, 9 11 happened. So it wasn’t a lot of job prospects. So I applied around, got a couple jobs, got a job at MSP, to start off at sales. And it was terrible. So I ended up being there for a very short period of time quitting. I actually went back to CompUSA for a period of time left, because they were mess companies, small business sales. And it’s funny, like you’re with the internet, whatever you did follows you now. So you gotta be really careful. So when CompUSA, I saw they had an opening and for small business sales, and all I had to do was apply because my sales numbers were already saved. So he’s pulled up my sales numbers and hired me on the spot. Because they saw that this in my numbers was were huge. Now, that didn’t translate to Las Vegas. And they were completely disorganized here. And I couldn’t be successful. I recognize that right away. I applied to Xerox. They have an agency here where they have an agency where they kind of have a proving ground before you go to corporate because sales is like high turnover. So I kind of got lucky where I got an interview with no real sales experience because they had this test you would take that was like two hour long test is a personality profile test. If you hit these certain metrics, you got an interview automatically type thing. And this is like the new sales manager. And that was his philosophy, like interview everyone constantly and interviewed and we hit it off and I started selling Xerox products, which is primarily at that point was copier multifunction devices, which was techie enough to be interesting. Because, you know, copiers haven’t changed much in 20 years, but they’re on the network. So I have to understand how to do that piece and they can send information over the network. So it was interesting. So plus Xerox was a big company. So I got exposed to being so even those agencies, Xerox still funded the agency and they spent $30,000 and 90 days training you when you started. So I had to go through formal training process. It was great. So that’s how I started as like a tech sales is where it’s at. So I started back then it was, you get a salary with small commissions or you go on full commission and you get a big commissions. And in my mind, it’s like, if you’re in sales, why would you care about salary? It’s like, because if you aren’t performing, you’re gone. So everyone should be full commission. I didn’t have any kids at the time. So and I made an average 10 grand minimum per month, day one, month one. It was crazy. So I made a ton of money and make Presidents Club all that, working for Xerox and it was rough. And I that’s where sales started.

Manuel: Okay.

Jay: It wasn’t before that was where sales started because it was outside sales. I had to generate my own leads and things. I had to go door to door and I was like awful because I’m kind of introvert, nerdy tech guy. And that’s where you get rejection and to understand how to navigate through that and have the motivation to go out and do that every day type thing. And it was tough, like the first six months, even though I had success, I feel like I got lucky because this is like ’03 time. So we’re getting through 9 -11 and then we’re in Vegas. So Vegas’ housing is starting to ramp up. So the economy starting to boom here all of a sudden. So there’s a lot of movement. So there were sales to be had. It wasn’t like I was trying to squeeze water out of a rock, but I still had to go out and get it. Nothing was given to me.

Manuel: You said that you were kind of an introvert, getting more techy. But prior to that, it sounded like you were also, I mean, maybe not an extrovert, but you were uncomfortable talking to people. So as you’re going through this, is it, is it the fact that you’re going to have to go and generate the leads or kind of what made it awful in the rejection? Just, I mean, I know you, your personality, like maybe you’re not the person that’s like the center of attention, but again, you’re comfortable talking to people, right?

Jay: Yeah, absolutely.

Manuel: So I’m just curious where that kind of, where you felt that you were an introvert and that it didn’t really work out.

Jay: My definition of introvert isn’t like I’m shy, because I’ve never been shy, but it’s been like, I get energy, I recharge alone, essentially, and I’d rather be alone to recharge. So if I’m in a crowd, I’m not going to draw attention to myself and be the life of the party. But if I have to, I’ll talk to anyone, you know, and sales is weird because like, you started to see people as an opportunity to make money versus like someone as a person. So I was like, okay, I’m meeting Manny. I wonder how I can get him to buy this type thing versus, and that like never sat well with me. And that, that was like the turning point was when I was able to mentally understand where I fit in, because they train you like objection handling, solution selling, how to push them to a decision, all this stuff, all salesy stuff, right? And you try that and I was like, awful at that is awful. Like I’d go in and like have the process of my mind have come out wrong. I came in as disingenuous. But what I realized is that’s not true. That’s not sales really sales is a problem solving. And when I shifted where I’m making friends, I’m trying to make friends, make someone’s I know, I know it’s annoying to have to deal with salesperson. So I’m going to try to be respectful of their time and kind of do something funny to interest, make your day interesting type thing. And then see people as your friends versus as a prospect, and then try to give value first before I ask for anything, because you know, you’re making transactions, emotional transactions, making deposits and withdrawals. So I’m going to deposit first. And when I approached it was like, how can I solve this person’s problems? And if they don’t have problems, how about how I leave them alone and move on? And that is what made me successful was when I made that switch. Because then I walk in office and be like, okay, I’m going to solve this person’s problem. So my first big deal was a mortgage company, like they were just have all these problems because mortgage was paper. And I just knew how to solve his problems because I understood the machines. I was like, Hey, I walked in his office and I was like, Hey, I see a machine there. And then we’re just like, Yeah, it sucks, blah, blah, blah. I was like, What’s going on? This is going on. Have you thought about doing things this way? Oh, that sounds makes makes sense. Let me get the owner here. He says this guy says he knows how to do XYZ, which is really my claim to fame, because I wasn’t really salesy. I just knew how the machines worked like cold and all the software and features of them that normal reps, this is weird dichotomy, which is like, if you have something that’s different, not normal in the industry, then that makes sets you apart. So for me, I was technical. Everyone else was kind of salesy. So there were no tech people on our sales team. Tech people were like the implementers, project managers, installers, sales guys were sales guys, but I was like a hybrid of that. And because of that I could go in, I did my own installs, which is where I learned that I really like project management more than sales. That’s what I really liked. I like installing things. I can have a story around that if we have time, because that’s how I got into project management. But anyway, so I that’s what I liked. I was like, the mentality was how do I solve this person’s problems and be respectful of their time and make a friend. And I had a lot of success that way.

Manuel: That mind shift of going back to you being techie, right? And it’s how do I solve this problem? How do I fix this? How do I make this more efficient? Similar to what you’re doing for your own business, but now you’re doing it for somebody else. And they’re seeing that value of, oh, okay, you’re not trying to sell me a printer, you’re trying to sell me a solution. And I think I, in the time that I was a sales engineer, that is something that I noticed was what would kind of get me, again, not better sales, but better interactions with those customers. Because as soon as you start going like, Hey, I want to sell you this thing. Well, what if I don’t need that thing? What if that thing doesn’t? Sure, it’s cool. It does all these cool things, but I don’t need that. It doesn’t solve a problem for me. So finding what that problem is. I understand now why are that really made you successful. So then what, from that point, so now you’re obviously becoming a good salesperson, they’re seeing you as be the install, the installer, you’re doing everything, soup to nuts. You mentioned that that got you into project management, but what part of that is it scheduling the install? Like, I’m trying to see the correlation here.

Jay: Yeah, yeah, sure. So I can tell you, like that same deal. So the way it works is you sell the sales person sells it, and they pass it off to a specialist who does the site survey and all make sure the machine’s ready to go in. And then I’m supposed to be done with the transaction once the customer signs, and I’m on to the next eight, nine sales. So I got that big deal, sold them a bunch of machines, including a big one. And I assumed that specialist was doing the rest of the piece. So project management really is like, you know, a temporary endeavor to produce a result, right? And you got to put all the pieces together. And the big machine required 220 power. And they didn’t have that. So the people came in, took out the old machines, put the new one in, and it’s left. It says, Oh, there’s no power here, and it’s left, left it there. So the guy had no big machine to work off. And I call a specialist, like, what is like, I’m busy, sorry. And it’s like, sorry. So the owner calls me to say, Listen, every hour this machine’s down, I lose 10 grand. What are you going to do about it? And I couldn’t sleep that night. So I ended up out of my pocket, paying two grand to have an electrician pull power line there. I had to call around and find one who’s willing to like drop everything and do it. That’s why it costs so much. And had it happen. And I was like, I do my own implementations now. Like, we had an implementation specialist, we had a site server, we had all that. And I was like, I don’t care. I’m doing my own implementations. Because I never wanted to go through that again, right?

Manuel: Because now you’re losing credibility, right? Like you’ve established this, like you said, you’re providing value. So you’ve provided all this value. And you’re, it’s almost like it’s 50% done, right? Like, Hey, here’s this value. Okay, you’re solving this. I bought it. But if they’re not actually able to use it, then it’s almost like they never bought it other than it just they spent a bunch of money for nothing.

Jay: Plus what I learned is like, I learned a lot more about the solutions if I install myself, like how it works. So like, okay, I like this. So I started to do my own installs. And that started to other people’s installs, because they realized this, this is this person is way better than our current process. So you mind helping me out pay you on the side, whatever. Although, so then I did that for a year. And that turned into a bunch of stuff. So like working hard thinking, you know, just making connections with everyone, talking to everyone, some luck, like timing really not luck, but timing, all that translates. So working hard is number one. So I worked really hard. We did really well. Vegas was booming. The community college CSN bought from me, because they went to redo all their printers in their labs. And I put that deal together, which was luck really, in my opinion, this happened that they would do it, which made us the number one dealer in the country, because agencies weren’t supposed to sell that. But I made friends with the person who was responsible for that. I met the college, did all the work with them, set it up in their labs, testing. And they put an RFP out, and we ended up getting a piece of that and made us number one country. So that made it all the way up to the chain of Xerox, like, how do they number one in the country? And they’re like, they point to me as the reason. So they were like, okay, we want this kid all like 25 at the time, and move them into like, regional position, where I’m making like way into the six figures, which is crazy to me. And I but I had to go through it. So people who worked with me were pushing me through. But I was like super unrefined 25 year old, you know, so I didn’t really didn’t wasn’t able to articulate my thoughts well, wasn’t able to articulate a plan. Well, a lot of it was kind of ad hoc thinking, like a reacting to whatever came. And when I had the final interview with the regional VP, like he didn’t like me. And they ended up hiring someone who was a good person, but wrong fit for the role. Instead of me, everyone was really upset, including myself. And I learned a valuable lesson there. It’s like, you know, doing is great. Being able to communicate you just know how to do it’s different skill altogether. But they the people, this is weird transition for Xerox, where they were trying to figure out how to sell their products through the channel, which is like MSPs type thing. And they know how to do that didn’t have people on the ground to get gather information. So the people I’ve been working with were like, okay, we’re going to get you this job? So we still want to work with you. Here’s what’s going on. We know you like learning things. Can we just pay you as a consultant to quit where you’re working now, and help us with this project? And I was like, cool, yes, which was an awesome experience. Because now that I’m like flying around the country. So essentially, they said pick a reseller. My father in law happened to have a reseller here in town. So I joined his company, and they’re going to push machines through the channel. They just do program for manage print, they wanted to try out. And they want me to sell it and report on how it did and stuff like that to all these groups. So it was great. So I did that for a year. And I got to meet the CEO of Xerox Anne Mulcahy, she was like awesome person. Twice, one time is me one on one with her, which is crazy. That’s once again luck. And it’s funny too, because I realized what I was really doing. So the program had a lot of problems and people were like, we’re afraid to bring it up. Because it’s weird, the corporate culture is like, you don’t want to be the person who is negative, proceed as negative. So an example of that was like the program they had was awful. I mean, it was super buggy had all these problems. And known, but they had some person program, everyone liked to just spend a bunch of money to bring the program in. They want to hear that. But so we had this meeting. It’s a steak dinner. And they’re like, everyone’s like, Oh, this is wonderful, wonderful. And they came to me and are like, what’s your experience? You sold a couple of these. Like, I was like, Oh, this is awful program. Like FMAudit it’s way better. This is here’s all problems I’m having. This program’s garbage. Which you know, once again, I’m 25 year old, not realizing that this is not that’s not how I should articulate it because the person who made it is right there. VP’s right there. And it’s like dead silence for the rest of the meal. But everyone’s like happy that I said it. But that like hurt my prospects of getting renewed contract. Because of the way I said it.

Manuel: And there’s two things that you that you kind of talked about that I kind of want to touch on. So the first one is, as you’re going through in your selling, right? And now you’ve become the mentor, you’re kind of managing the project. Did that take away? I guess it’s three questions. So one, did that take away from you, your ability to continue selling more? Because now you’re obviously implementing and doing a lot more. But at the same time, did it help your sales? Because now you know the entire process, you can kind of articulate that and know that I’m the person that’s going to do that. And now you’re kind of seen as the the one man solution as a one person solution as opposed to, Okay, well, thanks for selling this to me. And then it’s the implementer in the site survey and all this. So that’s, I guess that’s the first two questions. And then I’ll follow up with the other one.

Jay: So the answer that is, I was always at odds with my sales manager. Because I don’t know if you’ve been in sales before and that type of capacity, but you have to meet these targets is activity targets, which in my mind was always lies, like you need to make 50 calls a day and you need to make this many people and I better have this many business cards in my hand. Because that’s how they decided on your activities, which was supposed to lead to sales. And I’m like, everyone’s different. So you can’t have some cookie cutter approach to how they do it. And also like people are lying. So I didn’t I was always like low activity. But I was always made my number. So I was like, what do you care? I made my number, who cares what activities I’m doing. So I would when I met an account, I wanted to make sure everything worked for them. What we sold, I want to get to know their business, everything, like tell me about your business, whatever. So I went all the way in on accounts. So yes, that took away from me looking for a new business. So I always had these like peaks and valleys in my sales. But they always evened out. But I was always like on some improvement program where, you know, they have a reason to fire me now type thing. It was super annoying. So I’m always at odds. Now my manager at the agency was great. So he knew he could foresee that I was going to make things happen. But future sales jobs, it was a battle where I would just say, you know, then find someone else, you know, because this is how I sell. So to answer your question, absolutely, it took away from selling time. But it was 100% valuable. I learned so much about what we’re selling, how it actually helps the customers, what the problems are going to be, business in general, friends with and referrals, which is number one, because that business owner talks to other business owners. And eventually, I didn’t have to do much prospecting because people were like, okay, when you’re ready, this is the guy you want to talk to type thing.

Manuel: And then the other question that I had is when you mentioned the communication, right? And that’s something you, you understand the technical and sometimes that’s a problem that we’ll have is you’re smart, you know a lot, but being able to articulate that. So you mentioned, you know when you met, you know, the CEO, you know, being able to speak there and even at that dinner. So is it more of the approach that you’re taking to communicate? Because again, you don’t have a problem saying it, but is it the approach, the communication style? What was the big area?

Jay: So this is like, so I had some trouble because of that, just in general, because very blunt, and it doesn’t work, right? And I started really getting into reading right around that time. And one of the books I read was Seven Habits. And that really changed Of Highly Effective People. Stephen Covey, like my favorite book of all time, because the framework and I love frameworks. And as a project manager, the number one skill is the ability to communicate effectively. Number one skill, you serve everything else. You can’t communicate effectively, you’re not a project manager. And there’s a lot that goes to communicating that I didn’t realize that I didn’t think about. Because for that one particular instance, where I was like telling it was awful, the communication is more than just the words, right? Way more than just the words. Tone, body language, context is huge, more than just the words. And then proper communication, when you’re delivering tough feedback, there’s a continuum of courage and consideration. This is from Seven Habits. Where it’s like, you need to have the courage to say the right thing, you need to have the consideration to say the right thing the right way. So if someone leads to lose weight, you can’t tell them, hey, you’re really fat, go lose some weight. Because that doesn’t take into consideration everything that led up to them being in that state. And if your intention is to help them, you’re not helping them at that point. And I want to communicate. One thing I learned is like, if I, the human being, you have this fight or flight mechanism. And if I put you in a position where you get defensive, communication stops right there. So I want to stay out of defensiveness. And if I come in like blunt, there’s a high chance that I could open up. And so this person, so I didn’t look at his perspective at all. Like he spent his whole life building his application. Finally, Fortune 500 company bought it. They’re using me to determine what the problems are and I come in and make a global judgment that it’s awful versus saying, okay, here’s what I’m here’s the problems that I’m seeing, which have been more effective. It’s like, yeah, I’m installing it. It’s working. Here’s the problems I’m seeing. And if I were contrast these problems to another thing I’ve seen, here’s where I see the opportunities are to fix it. What do you think? Versus like your program’s awful, you know, because that’s kind of a conversation ender. So thinking about the whole picture communication. And that’s something I had to learn over time, too. And but when I started to look at things that way, I had a lot easier time, having that type of conversation really it’s everything, project management, everything to the product management, doing a lot of moving parts, a lot of personalities, you know, politics and all that, which is why project managers are compensated, not because they understand the concepts of technologies, because they understand how to communicate them properly, how to work the politics of the situation, have no this piece affects this piece, this person’s going to think this, therefore you need to do this over here That’s where the money is in project management. And I had to learn all that some of that a lot of it the hard way.

Manuel: So then as you’re getting that exposure to project management, so going through that, what got you into project management, like says it sounds like that’s where you start to get exposure. But from there, did you go into like a PM role, start formally training?

Jay: Good question. Yeah, so I went from that consultant role, which I loved. So project management for me is like putting all the pieces together, which I love doing. At the end of the day, that’s what I love doing. I love growth and progress, which teaching is great, because teaching is like little projects, right? So I went from that consulting gig to Xerox corporate, we’re direct, as they call them. So now I work for Xerox corporate. And I have, you know, large accounts like City of Henderson, CSN was my account. And did that for two years and the economy turned. And it was a wild west when the economy turned crazy things are happening. Silver State Bank, I don’t know if you were here when they were around.

Manuel: Yes.

Jay: Okay. They were one of our customers. And they were just gone one day. You know, the biggest regional bank we had here just got our state bank was just gone. And we had just sold them a bunch of machined. So like pick them up. And that’s like a hit to your budget and unrecoverable. So you lose a job if you if you lose that account. And boom, wasn’t mine by saw stuff like that happening. So I some some shady stuff happened to Xerox, because everyone was desperate, because the economy turned in this town. And I was like, I’m done with all this. You know, you get recruited a lot. So I constantly had recruiters calling me. One of the recruiters that called me was a Soft Choice. And Soft Choice is a kind of a VAR for software, their primary services, Microsoft licensing. And it was interesting, more than copier says, let me do this instead. So I left CSN, they’re my customer, they love me, they had great relationship, like, long term, I still talk to them, you know, I work there obviously. And so talk to the people that interface with for when I was a rep there. And they’re going through renewal for their machines, it was managed print. And they’re like, we don’t want to deal with the rep, we want to deal with you, because we need help with implementation, you know, us better than anyone, I don’t want to deal with the sales guy, will you do this for us, do the whole thing? So manage print, you have to do a site survey, all this stuff. And it’s tough, because that’s what the money was, you have to so they’re transitioning from having departments, budget, buy supplies to centralizing the IT. And you need to have all the data perfect to have that conversation, because departments are going to lose their budget. And they were going to rely on Xerox to put that analysis together for them. And they said, we want you to do it. And we should manage implementation, which is project management, really. I was like, I don’t know, you know, I did this as a rep. And I wanted to anyway, so they we did we talked about it. And they’re like, ask me how much I was going to charge, I threw a number out. And they’re like, yeah. So it’s like, wow, this is something that I can get paid for to do versus just part of my job. And that’s where I started realizing that. And then I loved it, you know.

Manuel: When you were doing this as a sales rep, you weren’t getting compensated for that portion of it. This is really just on your own time out of, I guess, you’re not paying for it, but it’s out of your own pocket, right? Because you this is time that you could spend, like you said, doing sales or doing something else. So you weren’t compensated for doing that. If anything, company probably to a point liked it, maybe you’re not your sales manager, but now they’re not having to pay somebody else to do that, right?

Jay: That’s exactly right. So that’s one thing I learned. So when I got to direct, I started to do other people’s installs, same as when I was an agent. And they were saving money instead of having to fly in a project manager to use me and didn’t tell me that and had the same battles with Pra… with the sales manager. I’m like, Hey, I’m installing mine and other people and you’re going to still hold me accountable and I met my number. Are you still going to hold me accountable? It was like super annoying, you know. So yeah, I was saving them money to doing my own implementations. Absolutely.

Manuel: So, you know, and even as you’re working for this VAR, right, you’re saving the company money because you’re doing everything. Granted, you’re still hitting your numbers, but did at any point, you kind of realize that, Hey, I’m saving you money and be able to use that to your advantage to

Jay: I never realized that till after I was doing it.

Manuel: Okay.

Jay: Yeah, things were really, I mean, I don’t blame anyone because if you were here during the economic downturn, so it was wild west, like no one knew what was going on. It was crazy. Like they globally, the thing that was pretty crazy. So everyone gets a pass, but it was too chaotic and everyone’s just trying to keep their head of a water type thing. So I didn’t know what was going on, but I didn’t know I liked it, like implementations. I really enjoyed that. And it was like everything was a headache and there’s a lot of moving pieces and drama and you have to project manager needs to know everything about everything. So you are a lot of pressure on you, but I didn’t mind because I really enjoyed it. And I wanted to know everything about everything. So it worked out for me.

Manuel: You’re getting hit by all these different recruiters because that’s another thing that you mentioned. And are they guessing around this time, right? LinkedIn or is it through word of mouth? Like how are they, how are they connecting?

Jay: LinkedIn primarily.

Manuel: Okay. And this is just based on the experience that you have out there, or is it just because you have a profile or is it specific? Are they targeting you for your skill set that you’ve put on there?

Jay: Yeah, exactly. So another thing is, is I actually recruited at some point. I worked for Robert Half. And so I got a direct experience with that, which I did on purpose for a couple of reasons, but they, this would, most of my recruiting calls comes from LinkedIn. I see your profile are you interested in his role type thing. As a recruiter, you have to do a lot of phishing. So if their profile even mentions what you’re looking for in a role, you qualify them essentially, you pull them in for an interview. So they saw, if I said project manager as my title, and they look and they see I have some project management experience, you get an interview for what their recruiter at that point. It’s like when the main roles of a recruiter is to filter the right candidate to the customer. So yes, LinkedIn is the primary thing.

Manuel: And really all they’re doing is just screening you at that point, right? Like you said, they’re going through, they’re prospecting, they’re screening and say, hey, do we move this person?

Jay: So, you know, and that’s kind of recruiting was a tough gig. Because recruiters a lot of them don’t have a good reputation. And they’ll maybe pump up what the job is or tell you the opportunity knowing that all they’re doing is seeing if what your profile is. That’s all they’re doing. So they’ll call anyone and do an interview to see what your profile is, whether it’s a job out there or not to say, you know, because you are a product to them, which is the thing that I had most trouble with as a recruiter is like people now are products. And yeah, so I got called from recruiters. Some of them just called me to see my profile, because maybe they can use me in the future. Now I’m in their database type thing. So some of them actually had a job. The recruiter that for Soft Choice was from Soft Choice, which is good. Internal recruiter, that’s usually pretty solid. And Soft Choice is like probably one of the best companies I’ve ever worked for. They were a great company. Super direct. Everything was honest. They were good to their customers. They’re a Canadian company not in the United States. And I really had a good time there when I was there and a good product for what it did.

Manuel: Were you working at Soft Choice and also doing CSN at the same time? Or is it kind of, I guess that kind of blended in for me? Because as you’re doing on the site, when they called you and they wanted you to do this implementation, because I think that’s around the time that we first met the first time. Because I remember that installation when I was working there as a manager.

Jay: There’s actually a lot between that.

Manuel: Okay.

Jay: So the economy was turning with Xerox. Soft Choice called me. I went to Soft Choice. It was weird to me because I’ve always been part of a team. And Soft Choice is a Canadian company and their approach is we need reps in certain areas and then we’ll fly in or remote in the resources when you have a big deal type thing. So I was on my own completely at that point. And it was a new industry. So they did software sales, soup to nuts. So there’s a lot to learn. And I was having to learn it all kind of from scratch myself, which is not a problem, but I’m learning it and selling it. So I’m learning it as I sell. So it was really tough. And my manager was great. And he ended up leaving. I got a new manager who was good. He was new. He’s a young guy. He was a super talented, super bright guy, new to management. Wasn’t that great. My boss from Xerox had called me. This is after a year of working there. I was doing well. I was hitting my numbers, but I was lonely and missing being a part of a team. So my old boss from Xerox had moved to a different company. He’s like, Hey, we need an enterprise guy here. Do you want to come over? So I met with him, talked to some of the, it was for a dealership here, which I still work with now because they’re great folks. And I consult with them now. And I end up going, he says, Hey, well, match whatever you’re making salary, commission, everything. So I said, Okay. So I ended up doing that and left Soft Choice. So I was there a year and then went to the dealership. And then the economy is weird and the timing was wrong really for me to be there. So I was there for a year and ended up leaving that job. And I was like, You know what? I’m done working for companies. You know, I had enough. And I started my own company. So I built a game truck in town. This is like 2009. I built a video game truck 2009 2010. And that’s when CSN called and I started consulting with them. So I consulted with CSN consulted other places and had a game truck business at that point. It wasn’t working for anyone in particular.

Manuel: Up to this point, like just kind of hearing, you know, the different roles that you’ve had and things that you’ve been doing. It doesn’t sound like at any point you’re going through and interviewing anywhere or kind of putting in applications on your own sounds like most of what’s kind of coming across or coming through your path. And you mentioned it as luck. I think it’s, I’ve come to see it more now as more opportunities, right? You’re doing the right activities, you’re doing the right things to where sure it’s luck, it’s timing, but you only do that. That only happens when you’re putting yourself out there. You’re doing the right activities. At any point here, are you doing any type of applying at jobs? Because it sounds like most of it is word of mouth, right? Somebody sees you, somebody hears about you. Sure, you’re probably still interviewing with them at some point, but you’re not applying anywhere. Everywhere they’re seeing your worth ethic, they’re, you know, your personality, whatever it might be, but everywhere’s kind of pulling you in as opposed to you kind of, you know, pushing yourself in.

Jay: So you’re right. All these jobs required an interview. It wasn’t like I start tomorrow, but the only job I’ve ever had to apply for cold is the Xerox job. That’s the only one my entire career. CSN everything. I’ve always had someone pull me in to it. And really, I put it out there here. I’m looking for it and I get pulled into something.

Manuel: And when you say you put it out there, what is it that you mean by that? Like, are you just telling people, hey, I’m looking, hey, I’m interested? Just in conversations that you’re having at these different places.

Jay: Yeah. So like, you’re building a network. So your reputation is number one. Like, you got to hold onto that as if it’s gold, because it takes a lifetime to build it and then a second to lose, right? So, I mean, you know, I have a reputation and I talk to people good and bad, not only good. And I talk to people and whenever I’m interested, I say, here’s what I’m interested in. And if they’re in that domain, I ask their advice. Hey, what do you think? Here’s what I want to do. What do you think? And then eventually people are like, Hey, you know what? We have this role why don’t you do this type thing. And that’s how I get roles. So I just put it out there, talk to my network and say, here’s what I’m interested in. What do you think? What do you think? What do you think? Never really asking, Hey, do you have a position open? Or, Hey, can you give me a job? It’s like, what do you think? And then people will say, people who think I’m the right fit will say, Hey, take a look at this position. I can help you get the interview or I can, you know, I’m the person you talk to, whatever it is. And that’s worked out for me. Like I said, the only job I’ve actually cold had to apply for was the initial Xerox one out of college. That’s the only one.

Manuel: And as you’re just putting that out, is it, I guess I’m very curious to your approach as to, you know, I get the, Hey, what do you think? But are you, is this strategic? Like, do you know that that person might have that type of contact? Or is it really just, you’re just conversational and just everybody that you talk to similar to when you’re doing the warranties, right? Like, Hey, do you want a warranty? Yes, no. Are you just talking to almost everybody and say, Hey, I’m interested in this. What do you think?

Jay: Yeah.

Manuel: And when you say, what do you think, are you asking them for advice as far as the type of role, the, I guess, what kind of feedback are you asking for? Or even, are you asking?

Jay: Yeah. So I’m not a very good liar or, you know, I don’t have liars right word, but like, I don’t have any sideways agenda. I’m pretty direct. So like.

Manuel: There’s no deception.

Jay: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I try not to be. So it’s like, if I call you, man, say, Hey, Manny, you’re a tech and looking for a tech job. What do you think? You know, like, I don’t care if you have it or not. I just want to know, like, how’d you get your job? Like, curious. So when I got the job at Robert Half had a friend of mine, I knew just from sales networking together, who was the branch manager there. And I was like, Hey, man, this is like 2013, my game truck business wasn’t doing well. So I couldn’t live off that money and consulting is like up and down. So I have a family have kids I need to get a job again. I was like, Hey, I really want to get into project management. What do you think? So he said, because he knows recruiting. So he pulled me in and he’s like, I had known him because we’ve done sales networking together. He’s like, Okay, you’re new project management. This is what your life’s going to look like. Boom, boom, boom. You don’t have enough formal experience. So you’re going to start as a coordinator, you’re going to be making 40 to 60 and then get these certificates, you know, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, That sucks. I’m used to making a lot of money. He’s like, Or you could recruit with me. And he like pulled out his W2 and he made a lot of money, recruiting, which blew me away. I was like, How are you making so much money recruiting? So anyway, he says, and you’ll learn this part of sales, because like, if you have a business, your number one value is your people, right? So you have to know how to get people anyway. So why don’t you just recruit with me? And you can do that project manager stuff later, make some money for yourself. I said, Okay. So that’s how I got into Robert Half. So it wasn’t like, I was willing to ask them because I knew that he might know the answer. And I was looking for project management, not even sales that turned into that though, because it sounded interesting, you know.

Manuel: Got it. So you were very open to different opportunities, even if it wasn’t exactly what you’re looking for, you’re like, Hey, this is what I’m thinking. And you are genuinely curious and say, Hey, how do I, you know, like you said, he does recruiting, he might be able to point you and it sounds like he did give you that guideline. But at the same time, you said, Hey, here’s something that you weren’t even interested or thinking about. Why don’t you try this in the meantime, or possibly, you know, could have been something you enjoyed and stuck with it.

Jay: Well, I talk to people and I asked the question, I’m not looking for them to answer the way I wanted to be answered, looking for whatever their answer is. So if someone I trust tells me this, I’m going to take that to heart, right?

Manuel: Okay, that’s interesting. I just, I’ve never thought of taking that approach to kind of my career, right? And just, Hey, this is what I’m interested in. It’s always I’ve, I have the idea and I might just ask, you know, Hey, do you know anywhere that would, you know, like I’m more, I guess in that sense of the conversation, I’m more focused on, Hey, here’s where I’m trying to get. How do I get there? Or, Hey, what do you think I might try to, you know, what are the, you know, the activities that I have to do? What’s the knowledge I have to gain? What are the steps I should take? But it sounds like you’re pretty open, like, Hey, this is what I’m interested in. But if you have other ideas of something different, I’m open to it.

Jay: And both ways are fine. Because if I’m looking for this one direct thing, I’ll say, Hey, I’m looking for this one direct thing. Can you help me? Yes or no type thing. But in that eyes being truthful, I am open. You know, I’ve had foot in both arenas. If you says, Hey, I have a job as a waiter, not interested, right? But that seems, and it was recruiting technology professionals for full time roles. So it was like something I was interested in. It’s like, Yeah, that sounds interesting. Because, you know, I have to be interested in and to do successful, to be successful at it, because I got to be really curious to learn the whole thing, soup to nuts. And to have that energy, you have to be interested. So I found it interesting. So I said, Let’s, let’s give it a shot.

Manuel: I know that we’re going to kind of come up here on time. But really from, from here, I guess the one question that I’m very curious in is, where did you actually start getting into project management? And, you know, what was that process like of, you know, kind of learning like your friend told you, Hey, this is where you’re going to start, you’re not going to be here. So what was kind of that entryway into project management?

Jay: So we talked about the story of how I got into it initially. I found I had an aptitude for it. This is like my really true skill of project management. Project management is such a ubiquitous term and it means different things to different people. But at the end of the day, you have to produce a unique result. That’s what you’re trying to do. And building a business is project management, implementing software project management. There’s a lot of different domains that touch project management. I just knew that, I enjoy that. The fact that the college was willing to pay me, I finished the managed print services implementation was very successful. And whenever they had like a big thing, they call me back, Hey, in this random stuff, like they’re the college’s online print storefront, where I can order prints online, I project manager that implementation. And then the word gets around. I’ve never like, I apply for project management roles. I just didn’t like the conversations I was having. But I’ve always had people call me and say, Hey, I’m looking at this big project. Can you help me? And where I’m managing now, it was like, I saw a low code software emerging, and I knew it fit in this industry. So I just put out to my network, Hey, have you thought about this at all? And it turned into big projects. And they’re like, Well, I want you to do this implementation. And so it’s like word of mouth really, I never formally said I’m Jay Jackson LLC project management. It’s just really I find implementation and like all weird stuff people call you for, I heard that you’re really good at installing things. Can you just do this for me? Yeah, I asked them what it was and make sure I had my skill. And, and I’ve had really strange projects I’ve implemented. So that’s kind of where that came from. And I still enjoy it. And teaching for the college, I have enough flexibility in my schedule where I can do that still, which is one of the reasons why I like teaching as well as like the flexible schedule.

Manuel: It’s very interesting. And I had a guest on right before you that mentioned that, you know your network is your currency, right? And with you, you know, the way that you’re talking about it, I very much see that, right? Like that’s, that’s, it is your currency. You’re not asking for anything. But again, the word of mouth, your reputation. And that’s one thing that we had talked about prior to, you know, you coming on here. And it’s the, I guess it’s the topic that I want to kind of end on is we’ve talked about kind of building your professional brand, right? So your reputation, your personal, whatever you want to name it. But really, what is the approach that you would take now? Or not only just what would you, what’s the approach you would take now, but what is kind of the approach that you’ve taken as you built yours up to kind of go through? And again, it could be even for somebody like me that’s been in the industry for a while, like, okay, I have a certain reputation, but what if I want to either build it, or maybe change it, you know, kind of what are your advice?

Jay: So I actually thought deeply about this, because you know, we work with, by the way, I like projects too, because you can bring in students and give them experience. But anyway, so I thought about this, because I thought about this as to what I told myself when I was a student back 20 plus years ago. And when I tell my students now is back to your professional brand, you’re building your brand, right? As you grow, you’re building your brand. It’s kind of like playing games where you have a character, and you’re building your character, and your character has attributes, right? And I love frameworks, I love gaming, so it’s a game to me. So then the game is, is RAKSE. It’s Reputation, Ability, Skill, Knowledge, Skills, Experience, reputation is number one. Like, do you say, do what you say you’re going to do? Are you honest? Do you make and keep promises? Your ability, which is really discovery, because people are inherently good at something just because of genetic makeup. I’m not going to be an NBA player, because I’m not 6’8″ right? So if I want to strive for that, because this is my passion, you’re not going to get there, right? Or it’s be super slim chance. So ability is a discovery, what am I good at? And the only way you’re going to learn that is by trying a bunch of things, and failing at a bunch of things. And then that’s how you expose technology, like, wow, I’m kind of good at this. It’s interesting. I’m terrible at design. And you’re good at with your hands, I’m not at all good at my hands, which I’ve learned the hard way, right? So that’s RA, and you have K, which is knowledge, which I define as like your formal understanding in a domain, which is where college is so important, because you learn the terms and you could get formal education. And then when you get that knowledge, next is S, the skill, can I apply that knowledge in a real world scenario? So I got this knowledge, it’s great, but I got to be able to apply it, which is like, where we are in education is we need to be moving more towards that, applying, which is why whenever I can, I try to bring a student in on a project to work on, which is one of the reasons why I like projects, because I can bring students in. So every semester, I’m saying, okay, I’m doing this, which who wants to come join me? So they can see and I can talk through what I’m doing. And I find out from them, like, Oh, you should do things this way, students are like smart, you know, I was like, Oh, you’re right, I should do things this way. And then so that’s the S. And then the E is experience is like how many times and what domains have you applied your skill. So I’ve applied my skill by doing this project, this project is project. So that’s the framework I work on to build your professional brand. You’re literally like making deposits and all those. So the reputation’s like non-negotiable abilities tough, especially when you’re younger, because you got to try a bunch of things out, students are graduating, I got my degree in cybersecurity, you don’t know what you want to be, you got to try a bunch of things out when you try. I don’t mean like get hired. Oh, this sucks. And then quit. I mean, you go all in until you’re like super proficient in it. And then you can decide whether it’s for you or not. So when I started sales, it was awful. I’m like, man, I made a mistake. I’m terrible at this, you know, I hate my going cold calling, whatever. But I was like, you know what, let me just try to figure this out. And then I ended up loving it once I went all in and figured out it’s like getting in shape, you know, the first 90 days sucks, and then you hit a groove. So working on that, that framework is you building your brand, you make deposits in each one. What kind of formal knowledge am I gaining? Never ends. So whenever I stopped doing formal knowledge learning, like I see decrease in my skills. So it’s like, I always, I’m doing some kind of Udemy exercise. Will I get a certification? I don’t care. I just want the knowledge, right? Something new comes out. I’ll learn everything about it. Blockchain. I want to know everything about it. Cryptocurrency, low code. So for the college, low code was starting to emerge into the mainstream. And we had a problem where COVID hit. And we had no case management software. And we thought COVID was going to be, you know, a couple of cases here and there. So they gave it to like the director to manage and then turned into 1000 cases. And she’s like, I need to hire someone. I need to hire three people. I can’t deal with this. I was like, well, tell me what you’re doing. I’m just curious, right? Well, I call them because they called in and someone tells me they called them. And then I take the information down on the Word document. I got asked battery questions. And then I have to wait two weeks and follow up with them, blah, blah, blah. I have Excel spreadsheet, which I mark and I showed them. I was like, oh, this is chaos. No wonder you need to hire people? Software can do all that. And I had been following because I’m learning. The Microsoft has all those low codes stuff they’re emerging. And I said, let me turn that into this. And then I did it, not even knowing if I could do it or not. And then it ended up not having to hire two people. And then we have a COVID case management program custom to the college only because I’m curious. So it’s like, you have to stay curious and be learning constantly because you never know where that’s going to be useful for your personal brand, right? And I’ll be looking for ways to apply it because the formal knowledge without applying it is not valuable. Tell my students, we’re learning all this in class, you need to find a way to apply it in your life. So you have a home network, great, create subnets, move all of your media to this subnet, move all this to this subnet, make the QoS so your computer gets all the bandwidth, stuff like that, you know, because you got to apply the stuff you’re learning. If you use learning class and never apply, it’s not going to stick. And then in what domains have you do? It’s always be looking for, even if you’re working for free, for experience, right? As long as you’re going to actually gaining experience. So it’s like, that’s your personal brand, that’s the framework I use.

Manuel: That is probably the best explanation that I’ve ever heard of, like a framework, right? I’ve never heard a framework where people are always like, hey, do this type of activity or that type of activity, but that framework of, you know, the reputation, would you call it RAKSE?

Jay: Yeah, reputation, ability, knowledge, skills, experience.

Manuel: Experience. And I, as you’re walking through and talking about that, that’s exactly it, right? Like I see all of that, the knowledge, like, okay, great, I can read, I can consume all this information. It’s not going to help me if I don’t know how to apply it. Hey, okay, well, now I know how to apply it. I’ve built up that skill set. Okay, how do I?

Jay: What have you done?

Manuel: What have you done with it? Okay, well, if you can’t get somebody to pay you for it, okay, maybe you start offering that, like you said, it sucks, but I know plenty of people that have done something like that for free, right? Or build something for themselves and say, okay, well, here’s what I’ve done with it, right? I built this skill on my own. Hey, here’s what I’ve done for somebody else, maybe offer it to somebody. It’s not a, there’s not going to be a shortcut. I guess it’s kind of the way that I see this. And that has probably been something that I think I’m, even now, I’m going to kind of go through and implement in my own career, right? Like, I think I’ve got a pretty good brand, like my reputation is good, like I’d say what I’m going to do.

Jay: Same with me.

Manuel: Similar to you, right? And I think that that’s why we’ve gotten along and, you know, we’ve crossed paths in the past. But just kind of now making sure that I’m applying in all these other different areas is going to be something that if nobody else is going to find this valuable, I know I am.

Jay: Yeah, yeah. Building your character, your video game character, adding stars to your attributes.

Manuel: Right. And eventually you want them all full stars.

Jay: You want them all full. You watn to be a super powerful character.

Manuel: I know that there’s still a ton of things that you’ve done that we just haven’t covered. I definitely would want to bring you back at some point, you know, like for a part two and just give an update and, you know, an additional information. But is there anything that for this conversation that you feel that you want to touch on or, you know, anything that we might have missed?

Jay: Not really. I think we had a good back and forth and we covered a lot of concepts. So I think that has been a fun couple of hours.

Manuel: Cool. I appreciate it. So with that, thank you everybody for joining and, you know, definitely plug in and download the knowledge. If you found value in this, please do comment, subscribe. Really helps me understand the type of guest, the type of content that you find most valuable. So until next time, thank you.