From Casino Floors to Cybersecurity at 38 with Michael Steffen | Ep062

Manuel Martinez: Welcome, everyone. My name is Manuel Martinez And this is another episode of Career Downloads, Where each episode I Basically hit the Refresh button, bring on a different guest to learn more about their background and their experiences to help you uncover any actionable advice that you can use as you’re managing your own career. So for today, I have with me Michael Steffen. He and I have met through a… mutual– I’m going to say colleague Through Dennis, who I’ve had on the show actually right before this one. I got to talk to Michael, learned a little bit more about his career into tech, and just fascinating everything that he has done beforehand. So I think there’s going to be a lot of transferable skills, a lot of kind of what he’s doing. So with that, I’ll go ahead and introduce Michael.

Michael Steffen: Hi, I’m Mike.

Manuel Martinez: Appreciate you coming on and being open to telling your story, so times that we talked prior to this, prepping forward, there’s a lot of good information. And I was like, I want to dive deeper, but- Saving it for today. So to start off, if you can just tell us what your current role is and some of the responsibilities, and then we’ll work our way there.

Michael Steffen: So I’m on a targeted account sales and a little bit of marketing support as well. I like to think of it as a good mix between understanding the tech side of it but not being a sales engineer, because those guys are… and gals are light years smarter than I ever will be on that side, but at the same time, be able to blend some of the soft skills too, and still know what I’m talking about, and be able to hang with CISOs or otherwise. Right.

Manuel Martinez: So now, if you can kind of bring this back a little bit, and tell me a little bit about where you grew up, and eventually what you thought you were going to do, and kind of what led you to start in your career.

Michael Steffen: So I grew– I was born in Ohio. I lived there for about six months, four days, and like 13 hours, according to my parents. We got out of there. Moved to Connecticut, was raised there for most of the time. Spent a lot of the time in the late 80s and early 90s, going to the city a lot starting to understand- by city being New York City. Boston as Well. Really getting to understand the East Coast and my formative years. Then we moved out to California when I was about 12. Lived there for two and a half years. Everybody always asked, hey, was your family in the military? It’s like, no, they were in health care. And health care, at that point, you bounce around just as much sometimes. So back then, my mom was– she was a VP at one of the health care companies. She had worked her way up from being left with nothing, when my dad left, to having a real job, and breaking the glass ceiling. So that, I think, set me on a trajectory to know there’s something always out there, and you can always pivot. And there’s still a chance, no matter how far down you think you are. We went to California. We stayed there for, again, I think two and a half years. Went back to Connecticut, culture shock in the beginning of high school, coming from Southern California at leaving in eighth grade and coming into ninth grade in a small town in Connecticut. Truly night and day. For six months out of the year it’s gray. You never see the sun. You have to dig your car out. Where before, it’s 65, 70 degrees all year round. The worst thing you have to deal with is a 40-degree morning. And I was this skate surf and snowboard guy. I don’t know what that is, but I’m here for it. So it’s like, hey, that was a lacrosse soccer football town. Night and day. And I didn’t have a lot of friends. I was the weird guy who didn’t grow up there. They all knew each other from kindergarten on, or their parents were relatively high up, or they all worked together. I was the odd man out. So I kind of realized too that, hey, if I’m going to be the odd man out, I might as well just kind of embrace that and see what’s out there for me. And I realized too, my stepdad at the time, he was big in the computers. I mean, the old big monitors. And every single year, we got a new box. And I was pumped about learning it. I gravitated towards that. So in high school, freshman year, it was M-I-R-C, and it was the Wares groups, and I was learning all that. I was big into gaming, not just in the video game stuff, but like tabletop stuff too, because again, I was a typical nerd, right? Not the sports guy. Not the sports that you could do 12 months out of the year, at least. So I found people online and I was like, hey, this is a play by post kind of thing. Later era BBSs kind of thing, play by post, whatever. I needed to learn how to develop HTML to create these pages to keep these stories moving. And I think really the formative thing for me was like, hey, go figure out how to do markup, do HTML, go get a book, HTML for dummies. I think everybody had one of those at one time. I think people still probably have it, I hope. And it kind of just opened my eye, I can create something, we’re just sitting at this machine that I’m gonna sit at anyway, because I can’t seem to socialize, and kind of create my own world. So it did. And that led into, I would say a passion of four years of that while still, you know, a lot of snowboarding there, did a bunch of competitions, skating every time, the weather wasn’t absolutely atrocious. And I gravitated to those cats. And I found a little friend group there, and I was really, really lucky. But they were also really accepting the fact that I was different than them. You know, they were the punk rock kids, and sure I was in and out a little bit, but I was mainly coming home, and I was just in front of my box, and I was enjoying the worlds that I was creating with my friends there too. So I had that kind of duality, and it kind of made me, I think, it really formulated, or formed a love of the opportunities online and in the tech space, without even really knowing what that was at the time,

Manuel Martinez: you mentioned kind of embracing, you know, kind of being excluded, and kind of the new guy, but then at the same time, you’re used to kind of playing sports, you’re doing, you know, a lot of these online gaming, you know, you mentioned like that duality. Do you think… at… that point in time, the ability to kind of, you weren’t, I mean, you were excluded because, again, they grew up with each other, do you think the ability to kind of go between different groups, like you said, the punk rock, you know the online people, like you’re playing sports, you’re snowboarding, like, do you think that, that… had an impact on kind of your career and just your personality later on just being able to say, okay, well, I can, at that point, sure, I got excluded, but then moving forward, you’re like, okay, I know how to move within different circles. Not that you’re trying to fit in, but you’re like, okay, I know how to talk to these people, that people- you know, these different groups.

Michael Steffen: Yep, no, 100%. I mean, without those years of trying to find yourself as a person, right, like you’re talking 12, 13, 14, like we all look back and we’re like, oh, that was cringy, but that was so formative. And whoever says it isn’t like, okay, okay, maybe. But for me, it definitely was Yeah, they’re pretty experienced. Yeah, exactly, yeah, for me, it definitely was. I had to learn pretty quick what people were looking for. And I think I learned early on, and this maybe found out in retrospect, kind of meet people where they are. You know, you still had to interact with the jocks and try to avoid confrontation if you can, because nobody likes getting expelled from school. You know, so you learn pretty quickly, and like, hey, there’s probably some similarities you can bridge. You can use as a bridge. Find those, focus on those. Don’t assume they’re gonna blossom into these amazing relationships if there’s not enough of them, right? You can be hopeful, but you gotta be realistic about where people are and where you are, and not try to compromise that, because then you start going down a rail of like, I don’t even know who I am, and that’s a headache at 13, 14, 15. So I mean, hell, it’s a headache now. Trying to change and become something new, and as we’ll get into, I’m sure, with the career pivot at 38, I had a taste of that later in life too. So yeah, I think to your question, yeah, it definitely gave me a good foundation for trying to understand people a little bit, taking the time, because a lot of people just write them off like, oh, I don’t need to know that person. It’d be like, I don’t know, man, maybe they’re really great people. And maybe they’d be super interested in what you’re interested in, but if you’re not gonna take the time, then you’re just being the elitist, right? You may think that they’re excluding you, but it could just be because you’re not taking the time or taking the effort. Maybe people where they are, find the bridges. It doesn’t hurt, and I think it’s paid off later in life a little bit for me of… lucky enough to land where I am, and I’m really happy about that, so.

Manuel Martinez: So then you start building HTML and kind of learning this. Did you, I know at the time it’s just fun, and it’s kind of how you can establish the relationships, but then what did you think kind of coming out of high school? Like, all right, it’s time to get a job. Maybe I’ll get a job, build websites, or what was the thought process? I went into a year of JUCO in Arizona, because I just kinda wasn’t really good at the scholastic thing back there. I’m gonna be honest with you, but I still had a love and a passion for, I would say, technology, and again, I think we use that term so commonly now because we’re in the business, but back then it was just like, oh, I like computers, and everybody from that time will probably understand what I’m talking about. I spent a lot of time online. Those are, you didn’t say tech, you just said, I don’t know, I like computers, or I’m a computer guy, or I’m in a, you know, whatever. So yeah, I think it definitely did. My first major, ironically, was informational technology I think it was, or informational services, whatever it was. Past HTML, you lost me. I just didn’t take the time or effort. It was my first time living away from the home, and that was just like, okay, this is not gonna work out for me. This coursework I just did not dedicate myself into. Fast forward a couple years, and I found myself back here in Vegas, and we had moved here, I think now, it’s 20, 26 years ago, so, you know, Onion Fields past Rainbow on the west side. Being hyperbolic, but, you know. It uh… and I remember coming here, and I was like, you need to do something, right? So I started working, started working in the restaurant business for a while, started working on the strip. Later, after the restaurant business, I spent a year, it’s kinda like a bachelor working in F&B down in Arizona. Came back up here, my mom and my stepdad were here, my dad was still around at the time, he was in Arizona. Didn’t know what I was gonna do. This is a pivotal moment for me, because it made me start taking life seriously, and in retrospect, it’s formative for me. I met my wife, now wife, at 24, I think, yeah. She’s gonna kill me if she sees this, but if I don’t know the exact date. We started dating, and she was everything I could ever ask for in somebody to spend the rest of my life with, and I wanted everything to do with her, and she wanted nothing to do with me. And I still have suspicions that she still wants nothing to do with me, but we get on day to day, I think, now, so. And I had a moment there, I was like, hey, how am I gonna feed this woman who’s willing to uplift her entire life from a different country, coming from a much higher socioeconomic bracket than I did. Move here and spend time with me, a guy who had no prospects, but nothing going for him. I was like, I need to make some money here pretty quick, just to show I can. And you know, we eloped, and her dad 100% had a hit on me. Like 100%, he was gonna kill me for sure. After getting over the fact that like, hey, I’m gonna do right by your daughter, he was like, okay, prove it. And I was like, oh, shit, now I gotta do it. Yeah, so I worked at the Wynn five years in entertainment at XS and Tryst I learned a lot about customer service. I really look at that as helping build the soft skills to be… really to again heart back to the point of meeting people where they are, and giving them what they need in that moment. Caring about people, I think it taught me a lot about that. It wasn’t just about, hey, let me take everything in your pocketbook and move on. And then how to deal with the stress of what we were doing. You know, it’s just 2007, eight, nine. So my entire generation was getting foreclosed on. We were getting laid off. All of our 401ks were worth nothing. Houses, like I said earlier, done, savings gone. We had no idea. Like it was literally like, we look back at COVID, we’re like, oh, that was a crazy upheaval. Well, people don’t realize too, like 2008, nine, and even before that in the eighties, seventies, there’s always been these instances of great financial upheaval for an entire generation. They become more frequent now, which is scarier. But anybody that’s, I would say around our age, remembers those days and remembers the promise of, hey, go to school, get a good job. You’re gonna get the house. You’re gonna get the spouse. You’re gonna get the future. You’re gonna get the solid dream. That dried up pretty quick when the entire stock market decided it wanted to take a doze dive. I was very fortunate and very lucky to not only get skills then, soft skills, but also be in a position to make decent money. I gave my wife, or rather, we worked together to give ourselves a life that we have now. I feel like I was nothing in that equation sometimes. I’ll undersell myself every time I can. Moving forward, I

Manuel Martinez: So I have a question- Yeah, no, no, you’re good. I have a question there. So around, kind of doing in food and beverage, where you, and working in restaurants, where you work in front of the house, back of the house. Okay, so front of the house, so you had at least some experience customer service wise in that aspect. So going into, like you mentioned, the casinos and Tryst and all these other things. So it wasn’t a huge change. I mean, it is in that–

Michael Steffen: You wear a nice suit now

Manuel Martinez: Yeah, right, exactly. It’s a little bit different than the latter. But it’s the same thing. You’re still dealing with customers. You have to kind of know how to talk to them. And basically, like you said, I’m not just gonna take your money and be a jerk about it. So is that, again, kind of now going back to your formative years and talking to different people, is that something that you think came naturally to you or as you’re doing this more, just even starting in the restaurants, because everybody’s, I don’t wanna say everybody, but a lot of people have started there and kind of get you know their feet wet in being in those types of environments. So is that something that over time, you just got better at? I think it’s something I still work at a lot. But yeah, to your point, working in the front of the house and you deal with a lot of problems in the front of the house, interpersonal issues, not only with guests coming through the front door, but internally you’re dealing with it, coming from line level employee to management, et cetera, and then eventually going to the back of the house, to your point, you have to learn how to deal with people. It’s not a question. And it definitely helped me grow that skillset and really not only just grow a thick skin, but to be critical of the fact that like, hey, take a step back from the situation and just look at it. They’re not mad at you. They’re mad at something that’s going on right now that you’re just a part of. And you can’t take that personal And I think that translate a lot of the ways, people either get stuck in their egos, which they may consciously or subconsciously have, and they don’t critically look at situation- interpersonal situations And I’m actually finding that a lot in tech too. So, I might offend some people out there I apologize, but I think it’s fair. You need to take a step back and just have that ability to be critical of the situation and say like, hey, I’m just the person in front of this irate person, or I’m catching whatever they’ve been dealing with for three to four days. This goes back to meeting people where they are, man. You just gotta take the time. You gotta find the bridge. And to your question, yeah, it definitely helps. And you learn to laugh about it in a way, because you’re like, you’re hysterical right now. And not in like a mean way, but it’s just kind of one of those things where it’s like, hey, let’s simmer down. Let me aknowledge the fact that you’re absolutely off your rocker or irate, and I’ve done something or maybe nothing to make you that angry. But how do I fix it ? And then to transition to problem solving, and I think this is what served me a little bit when I did make the career pivot to tech, is wanting to solve the puzzle. And I’m sure everybody on here says that, at least in some capacity, solve a problem that exists and be the solution there. And I’m not always that admittedly. Again, you go home and my kids are telling me I’m a problem all the time sometimes. But at the same time, it’s the want and the need to do it. And I think that comes from the soft skills. Where most people in tech I found, it was coming from the hard skills. And those are interchangable sometimes. But yeah, I think it fed right in. It definitely helped. And I think it’s carried me forward to today and be able to sit here with you, which I’m obviously blessed, lucky to be able to do so. Yeah. So meeting people kind of where they’re at and just, it sounds like even at that young of an age, you had the idea of like, hey, this is what I’ve got to do. Is that something like from your mom? Is that something you learned? Or is it just you’re figuring it out as you go? I’m just curious. That’s a good point. I don’t think I’ve ever really put my mom in context to this ever in 43 years. But this is why you’re good at your job, I guess. But she had to do the same, right? Single mother, left with nothing after my dad left. Nothing but a pile of debt and no home How does she, and she was lucky enough to focus on education in an era where women were not incentivized as much to do so. She was one of the first female graduates graduates of a master’s degree in nursing and, or sorry, healthcare management from Villanova and UNC. At the time, that was kind of unheard of There were still about five or six different careers pathways laid out for women in the workforce at the time. She bucked that trend, obviously in its face So she would tell me, hey, you got to do what you got to do And you can’t be a roadblock for your own success by taking everything personal. And it’s funny you mentioned that too, because she still tells me that to this day, because I’m human I get caught up in some stuff. She mentions that too and you know I… Yeah it really was about my mom because I saw what she had to do. She had to be adaptive. And we’re an entire generation that predominantly had single mothers right? Or at least a vast majority, let’s say, statistically. And I may be wrong, but don’t kill me. There’s still a lot of them. And they do what they have to do to get by and only provide for themselves in their future, but their kids as well. I think that’s one of the biggest struggles anybody can face as a parent. I know that when I’m left alone with my kid for a certain amount of time, I start getting cagey. What I’m going to do imagine if that’s full time. Wild. So yeah, to your point, I think it was because I saw what she had to do, the way she had to adapt and the way she had to overcome. So I learned something here, about myself. And sometimes it just takes that outside perspective right? because, and only because you had mentioned, hey, her kind of going through, and I was like, okay, wait a minute Seemed like a good guy that kind of learns quickly, but I’m like, it’s hard at the same time to be like, as a 13 year old just kind of looking back at your own, I’m like, yeah, I don’t know that I would’ve came up with all that, meeting them where they are and I’m kind of going through on my own. But again, I’m similar to you. I’m not like everybody else, so who knows? So then now you’re, you’ve been doing this for Tryst, this is like that downturn and you’re kind of going it’s a big change for a lot of people. How do you proceed moving forward at that point to go through and say, okay, probably that same role is not as lucrative or as sustaining as it once was.

Michael Steffen: Has a shelf life.

Manuel Martinez: Yeah, so what do you kind of do moving forward from that point and just like, how did you, so I know you’re married but I don’t know if you have kids yet at this point, it’s just the kind of two of you, so makes it a little bit easier. Yeah, so I mean ironically, you mentioned kids, me moving from the The Wynn to Drey’s and Cromwell specifically was really a pivotal moment for me because it’s when I made the transition from nightclub and entertainment to marketing. And I felt like after watching some real big pioneers at the Wynn at the time in marketing, who have moved on to be CMO at entire properties at this point, that there was a real opportunity there to bridge- again, find a bridge. And people were talking two different languages You had property marketing that was like looking at entertainment like it was persona non-garata. You looked at property marketing or gaming and they were like, we don’t understand non-gaming. And at the time it was really a unique opportunity. They were like, oh, FNB, FNB is okay, but it’s lost leaders sometimes or it’s an amenity. We’re just gonna do it as a write off, it’s all focused. And that may have changed now. I can’t, I’m sure your listeners or viewers will know better nowadays because I am so removed but, there was an opportunity to speak to, and I don’t wanna feel like I was the first on to think about this because it wasn’t, but there was an opportunity to bridge that divide. You had a lot of older folks who were in property marketing still that were as CFOs of places or in finance or in the emerging compliance space. They were in non-gaming marketing or, yeah. And they didn’t speak the language to the generation I found myself as an older member of. So to future proof and show value to a business this comes back to the idea of showing value and trying to be of use to people, I guess, it needed that. And I had just seen some pioneers in the field like, at that time, entertainment coming out of the Wynn was top tier, it just was. Awards all the time et cetera, et cetera. We had the people from other countries looking at us, the place of entertainment destination still in a terrible economic time at that time. And they were still managed to innovate and push the envelope And I was lucky enough to be around those people. Still very, very grateful for that opportunity to this day as it opened my eyes to possibilities. But I also need to like, hey, I need to professionalize this. I need to be able to put on the suit and tie and then go talk to that corporate person and have them see value and opportunity in what we were bringing to the market Nobody understood it, right? They were just like, how are we so successful? Like you spend $100 million to build this place at the time, 180, whatever it was. Nobody thought it would be what it was. And they just knocked it out of the park. It was almost a surprise. So that means an entire generation wasn’t being at least looked at as a real opportunity by properties at the moment. And again, look, I understand I wasn’t on the top of the food chain to decide that was the case or not. But at the same time, I thought, hey, there’s an opportunity to speak that language and bring marketing ideas and experiences because we had gone away from the consumer consumption model to the experience model of people now purchasing experience and wanting to be a part of something again. People also just wanted to release all the stress from that era that I had an opportunity to do that with at that time, Caesars and the opening of Drey’s and Cromwell. We were not only launching Cromwell as a property, we were launching Linq as a property or the adjacent to it. And then Drey’s being the capstone over there. I got an opportunity to work with some really, really great people who I still look back fondly at. I won’t call them out by name, but they know who they were. They were really amazing people, both in my age group and a little bit above me seniority wise at the Caesars group and the different pods. I think they did great work and I learned a lot from them. So to your point, I realized I had to find that bridge again and I also had to make it make sense for me as I move into a career because I thought that was gonna be my career forever. Moving from there, I obviously had unique opportunities after that, but yeah, to your point. it definitely was.

Manuel Martinez: In marketing at that point, is it marketing obviously to the consumer? So the kind of that bridge in that gap, was it learning kind of to speak to the executives as to what you saw based on your previous experiences and like, hey, this will work. This is how we need to market this because it’s just, again, the old way is not-

Michael Steffen: It wasn’t relevant. It’s just losing its relevance. To your point, yeah. But it was also a little B2B. I was learning B2B at that point. I was learning partnerships I was learning how to attract sponsors to put there- and then what marketing placements were and all the things that were novel to me at the time, that may have been old hat, sure. But at the same time, it was learning again, that whole other event- avenue of revenue generation and value generation too, for the companies that were placing their ads there or placing their brands there. As simple as like executing step in repeats properly. Stuff that we all kind of just take for granted as in oh, it happens in the background. Well, it’s somebody’s job to do that. And I was learning what that meant as like a true partnership. Where again, not to ruin that, but I won’t say who the companies we were working with at the time, but they weren’t just liquor brands. They were real companies. And getting to work with real players in that field was a very unique and amazing opportunity. Whole new opportunity for me to learn and utilize the try to be people where they are kind of skillset and the soft skills to grow my ability to excel. And to your point, yeah, it was communicating to the board. Because at that point I was talking to people of real import, heads of the property, et cetera, that, hey, this is a unique opportunity and it isn’t just looking at for every dollar, even though I understand there’s, now I truly understand, there’s a bottom line component to this. You have to make people still feel like they’re getting something from this. And that’s that value generation. And it’s that speaking the language so the board can understand it without just saying, no, that doesn’t make enough money. You’d be like, no, you’re gonna make money because you’re gonna make loyal customers or you’re gonna make loyal guests or whatever you want them to be. And it was that empathetic portion. And I think it had some real value there. So, yeah.

Manuel Martinez: Sounds like this is gonna come into play later on, but dealing with, like you mentioned, partnerships and dealing with these other brands. So it’s not just like, hey, we want your product and we’re just gonna throw it over there, right? It really is a partnership because you have to kind of go through, negotiate and just probably brainstorm from a marketing perspective and say, okay, hey, this is what we can and can’t do. But you also have to know, it’s not just one company that you’re dealing with, it’s multiple. So I’m sure you’re having to juggle that as well. Again, I don’t need names, but just kind of like, okay, well, I don’t know if you’re dealing with competitors and just kind of having to deal with that portion of it. And then also, okay, well, maybe they’re not competitors, but how do I, well, they’re not competitors. How do I kind of place them together versus should they be spread apart? How do I grow not only that partnership to make them happy, but then also the property as well right?

Michael Steffen: It was a big part of that and that was a big eye opener for me. Cause you know, I had no experience in that stuff at that point. I knew it was possible because I’d seen some of the best do it. But coming into that opportunity, my mentors at the time, the guys who really gave me a shot were like, you better figure it out. I mean, obviously I had oversight, but they were a liaison with the property and the pod heads and the C-level guys and gals too. At that time, the president of the hotel was a wonderful lady and she was amazing. I forget her name, but she’s gone out and do bigger, better things. It was just, it was an amazing time, but it was also like a lot of kind of drinking out of a fire hose. It was like, I don’t know. Sure, let’s figure it out. And I was really, really had a unique opportunity to hire a really good team. They’ve gone on to do amazing things, both in and out of marketing, on and off properties or with or without properties, now starting their own businesses. It was really amazing to see them grow from coordinators and interns. Now we were talking about interns earlier, but you know, and seeing where they are now and you know, maybe this is a little bit narcissistic, but I like to think that I helped them out and kind of put them on a path too. And we were all figuring out together, but I like to imparted some positivity and you know, forward growth for them. So that was nice, but yeah, to your point, I learned a lot, learned about value generation pretty quickly. Because if I missed it, it was gonna go south for me pretty quick. You mentioned kind of building the team. So were you at some point in the leadership position there or okay, and what was, had you been in leadership before?

Michael Steffen: No, never. Never.

Manuel Martinez: I’m sure that was a learning experience The first time I did it too, I’m like, oh, this is easy. Like all I’ve got to do is, you know, especially if you’re around high performers or a smaller team, like one time I managed, I had three people at the time and I really don’t think I was managing them. It was just kind of giving direction. Like, hey, here’s what we got to do. Here’s what’s coming from above. And you know, hey, let’s these things. Here’s some good ideas, kind of brainstorm And it was just like, go. And they’re like, how’s your team? And I was like, awesome.

Michael Steffen: (laughing) I think they’re great. For what I know. Yeah. Yeah, so you understand what I’m talking about. It’s, you know, that team building, that aspect of it, you know, that was a big wake up call too because the first time I had to bring an HR into stuff, like, you know, and it’s like, I had to really watch how I was as a leader, I had to learn quickly. Cause it’s, you have to show the best, I like to be the person who tries to lead by example. That was a hard lesson to learn though because I was taking my time to be like, oh, maybe I’ll slack off here and there. But I’d also just had my first kid. My wife and I were blessed with our first daughter. At that time, this was during preopening So it was like, anybody who’s done a preopening for a property like that You live there. You might as well just get a cot and pull it in your office. Cause you’re going to sleep there more than you’re ever going to be at home. So great with a pregnant wife who was looking for me to be there, but you know, she’s a trooper and she’s amazing. She’s stuck with me. But yeah, I also had to learn how to, bring them along too and how to be a good leader and show example, put in the extra effort. And then to your point of like, hey, check their work. Cause you have a lot riding on it. I never thought I’d have to do that, right? Like to your point, you have high performers. I like to think some of the guys and gals that I was with were high performers too. I never really thought I had to do that. Cause I just thought it would, it was trying to operate at a level of, next success, right? And seeing what’s the best they could be is. But that was a wake up call. Yeah, that was a lot.

Manuel Martinez: And I didn’t have, I mean, luckily I didn’t run into that situation but like you said, just checking in and it’s not micromanaging, but again, at the end of the day you’re responsible You could be like, ah, well, Joe didn’t do it, sorry but they’re like, well, no, it’s not my bad. It is your bad because you’re the one that’s responsible Like you can’t, to be a good leader, you can’t go and say, well, he didn’t do it. Why didn’t he do it?

Michael Steffen: You have to eat it. You have to be like, no, it stops with me. I messed up by not checking Joe. And it’s that ownership And this comes back to the soft skills. And I think leadership has a big part to that play- part to play there Sent me up to be a decent dad, I would say too. Cause now I learned about a little bit of the discipline side of things too, is, hey, you know, like Joe in this instance, why aren’t you getting this done? Because it’s not just you not doing the work, it’s the team now failing around you because you’re not holding up your level What is stopping you from doing that? Let’s look at the roadblocks. And if I can mitigate them, hey, you know, more the merrier right? We’re doing better every single day. But it’s taking the time and it’s finding that bridge and it’s meeting people where they are. You know, at the time we had one coordinator who’s dealing with a lot of personal stuff. And, you know, look, there’s, I try to be as empathetic and do the best I can there. But I was probably ill equipped to do a lot of it. So, but I, you know, you gotta take the time. You gotta be a leader when you can. You gotta get past that imposter syndrome of, you know, like, oh, I don’t know what I’m doing. Like you have to just kind of figure it out and do the best you can to get the best out of people. And help motivate them to do, want to do the best that they can do. Right? And that’s always a unique challenge. Kind of what was the biggest struggle? So, I mean, for me, at that point, like kind of being an management and leadership, I think the biggest struggle for me was, I thought that at the time, that’s what I wanted to do. RIght? I’m like, yeah. I want to go down that track, management, BP, like CIO. Like that’s where I’m headed. And I quickly realized, I don’t know that I wasn’t, maybe I wasn’t ready. And when I say I wasn’t ready, I don’t think I was ready to let go. Actually, I know, like looking back now, I wasn’t ready to let go of the individual contributor I still wanted to be hands on with the tech and kind of do that. And at some point, you have to learn to push that away. And it’s funny, I had a conversation with somebody recently and it was, we were talking about that and I go, I thought I kind of had to choose. And you do at some point like you can’t be good at both. You can’t be a good practitioner and a good leader. And I just don’t think I was ready, at least at that time to say, nope, I want develop me. I want to develop you, but I really can’t because I need to focus on me.

Michael Steffen: That was, I had the same issue. I think I still want to be a part of everything. I wanted to have my toe in every single pie, whatever it is. And it’s that letting go and truly trusting the people that you’ve brought up to do their job, while still being, knowing that you’re responsible for them. And it’s tough because to your point, you want to say like, oh, if I’m responsible, then I’ve got to be on every single project and do every single thing. And as I progressed into management ladders, I think in marketing and different properties, et cetera, unique opportunities, it was harder for me to let go. And I think that’s kind of what actually brought me to tech later. I was saying, yeah, I was getting the paychecks and that was great, be able to afford a decent life for my family and everything That’s amazing. I think everybody should want that as, external reward system. It does motivate people, sure. We don’t go to work just because we love it. We love it, but it also helps pay our bills, right? So it’s not a four letter word. Anyway, so yeah, to your point, it just wasn’t fulfilling. And I kept wanting to solve the problem myself. Maybe that’s narcissism, maybe that’s ego, I don’t know. But I just felt like I needed to touch it and I wanted to fix the puzzle. And I wanted to always be involved with something I was not only responsible for, but something I could change. Right, and I’ve heard it before- I heard something similar that kind of made me think and is it kind of looking back, right? Where you had to learn HTML and a lot of what you’re doing on your own and figuring it out. And it seems like the people that… have those challenges and learn to overcome it on their own have a harder time letting go. At least so far my experience is like, okay, well, I’m used to doing it. I know I can figure it out. I know, we talked about a lot of the stuff that I do at home for tech. Some of it I’m like, I probably could and should just pay somebody, but I’m like, I can do it, why am I gonna have somebody else do it? So it’s kind of understanding where’s that balance of like, yeah, but really you need to have somebody else go through. I agree. I mean, my wife yells at me about that stuff sometimes. Just have somebody fix it. It’s like, but I could do it. And it’s completely nonsensical in retrospect. You do the amount of money you make per hour. You do how many hours it’s gonna take you to fix it. You’re like, yeah, it probably just makes more sense for me to pay somebody to do it. So I could focus on whatever I need to actually get done to continue a revenue stream or whatever I’m doing. But yeah, it is, I think that’s a very good point and an astute observation on people who are problem solvers, who are hands-on about it, who still want to be involved. It’s impossible for us to let go of it. You know, and then again, we talked about earlier, but I think when I was really interested in tech in my early kind of teens, there was a lot more of a DIY culture there. And you were judged if you were learning how to write your own scripts. And you were judged if you weren’t doing X, Y, or Z yourself. It’s like, oh, you don’t know how to create your own freak box? Okay, well, that’s all right, bro. You know what I mean? You were judged because you didn’t know. Now, granted, that could just be because those are really unwelcoming people in general, but it was one of those things like a rite of passage, you had to earn it. And I still think a little bit of that exists too, right? Obviously, people value hard skills. It’s a skill-based economy right now, and I’m sure we’ll talk about takeaways later, but that’s one of them. And I think that still exists, especially in the tech market. It’s about, hey, what can you produce what can you do? You’re valued on that, right? So much more than I think a lot of other fields. And that’s what maybe gravitate there.

Manuel Martinez: So then you go, you’re in this leadership role, you’re doing marketing, you’re like, this is it, this is my career, this is where I’m gonna continue going. And did that progress past working at the Cromwell? Or what happens at that point?

Michael Steffen: I left the Cromwell because I realized I was too much. I was too involved, and I was starting to get sucked into the nightlife, even though it was just the marketing side of it. Didn’t like who I was becoming. My wife was totally cool, and she was amazing. She stuck with me through all of it. But she would tell me like, hey, you’re kind of an asshole. And I was like, that’s not really me by nature. Granted, I could be rude and blunt to the point like anyone else, but that’s not who I was. And it is damn sure wasn’t who I wanted to be. So she was like, you gotta figure something out. So I left there and I took an opportunity working for a local guy, he’s a TV personality, as his marketing director. And I learned a lot about SMB, small businesses at that point. And I learned a lot about PR that I wasn’t really privy to before, but I obviously touched on it, because we’re talking property level PR firms here. Like I wasn’t in the same room in them as a lot as I was later in my career. From there, that didn’t really work out, but I left on good terms. I got an opportunity after kind of like figuring back to square one of like, hey, what the hell am I gonna do? To go to the Philippines and work with a great group of guys that were expats. They tapped me to come out and be specifically in entertainment again, non-gaming, although that did change, which is crazy if you think about it in context to this face in Asia, that doesn’t make sense. We, you know, I went out there and it was another Blitz opening project. We had two years to do something. We were against a PAG core, implemented deadline to open. And, you know, we had barely broken ground. The place was barely a shell, but it was a $7 billion property with a B. And now we look at that like, oh, $7 billion. Like, it’s just casual money, not for me, but, and definitely not back then when you start talking about developing a resort casino in a developing nation like that, you know, it was a huge investment from an outside owner. It wasn’t a local owner. Due to, you know, national security, or I’m sorry, the, what are the laws like national, nationalism, whatever.

Manuel Martinez: “National law.”

Michael Steffen: Yeah, yeah. They needed to have like 51% ownership of, from a local or whatever it was. So there was obviously still a tie in there and we were employing predominantly local talent all up and down the levels of hierarchy. But we were hiring, you know, six to 7,000, 8,000 people to work in this place that didn’t exist a year before. I got tapped by a really good friend of mine, Max. He’s now with a company that I won’t shout out, but anybody who looks at my LinkedIn, I’ve got nothing but positive things to say about him. He took a chance on me, Steve Walston, home of, now I think he’s in Perth. He was at Hanoi for a while. He took a chance on me too. They gave me an opportunity to come out there and really prove that I was willing to deal with the culture shock. And to your point, did I progress? Yeah, I think I also progressed a little bit as a person. And I like to say, I kind of came back to who I was. And I really found out what was important to me, working as an expat over there in the Philippines for three years, opening that property, especially working around so many diverse, different people. We were hiring people from, you know, Pakistan, India, Canada, the US, obviously, people from Australia. We had a lot of local talent. You had the Japanese contingent of the existing parent company that was coming there. It was just this melting pot. And we were all trying to figure out how to work together towards something. If you ever, ever want to have an opportunity to have to become the best person you’re capable of being, put yourself in one of those situations. Because it’s a grind. And the expectations are all over the place. And the bureaucracy, expectations of bureaucracy are all over the place on the scale. You know, paperwork for the sake of paperwork, right down to like, hey, just go get that finished. Like, I’m not gonna ask you how you did it. Like, and it was coming all different ways. We were working seven days a week. You know, Max, he was working, you know, at least 20 hour days, seven days a week, going to bed, getting up in the middle of the night, coming to work, going back to bed before the meetings. You know, these guys were grinding. And some of them are still, some of my really best friends. You know, I’ve been really lucky to stay in touch with these guys that we had this, and gals that we had this really formative kind of bonding period and really, you know, I think the word is nowadays is trauma bonding in some ways. But you know, I don’t really subscribe to that. It’s just like, hey, we went through it.

Manuel Martinez: It’s a shared experience.

Michael Steffen: Yeah, exactly. And you know, I’ve got friends in Canada now that I didn’t have. I’ve got friends in Latin America that I didn’t have. In Europe, I can call somebody in Japan and go hang out with the previous VP of the place. And he was a motorcycle freak. And like, we’d go ride motorcycles if I wanted to. Like, it was a really unique opportunity that I think a lot of Americans don’t get a chance to do. You know, because we’re such a big country where in Europe and other kind of interconnected smaller countries, it’s no big thing to just go over the border and work. Going overseas to work here because of our geography and isolation, it’s a big deal for a lot of people. And you know, it’s becoming less so, which is good. But at the time it was really eye opening. So yeah, I definitely progressed formed really good bonds. Had you become a better person, you have to.

Manuel Martinez: And that becoming a better person, do you think it was you kind of melding with the environment or was it just, you’re kind of outgrowing it? The reason I ask is I know, I don’t know it at the time, but my wife will let me know I start to become that jerk because I’m unhappy either I’m not learning or just I’m getting to the point where I’m not happy. And it bleeds over to home. So like you’re saying like, hey, this isn’t normally you. One day, cool, I get it. You have a rough day tw o. When it’s a week, the next week and she’s like, something’s got to change. Do you think it was more, you were just ready for the next challenge or was it really just kind of being around that nightlife and just, again, I don’t want to blame it on everybody that’s there, but just kind of the product of the environment we’re just like, oh, well, this is what we do. And it just kind of rubs off on you. It was institutional almost at that point. that point. And I didn’t like that. So yeah, to your point, like, when did it change and why did it change? It changed because she was the catalyst for change. I didn’t like how I was treating her. I didn’t like how I was treating people around me. Loved ones had less value in my life somehow. And I was like, dude, that’s not fair. That’s not real. Like you’re being, honestly, being a jerk and there’s no reason why. Like you got to change it. Going to the Philippines was a big eye opener for me. Ironically, my wife and one year old child were here, still working and I was over there for two years. So we’d see each other there six months, but I was raising a kid by FaceTime. But it also put a lot of things in perspective to your point, like, hey, you got to now, you got to realize like, hey, you’ve got a kid, she’s one. I left a couple of days after her first birthday. My wife, who is a Filipina from the Philippines, but again, comes from much better class than I do, was here working. But you know, other than the extended family over there, I didn’t know anybody either, right? I had made some friends that transferred over with Peter being one of them. But yeah, I had to really put things in context. I had to put things in perspective and realize where the value was. And when you went over there and again, being separated, did you know it was gonna, because again, it’s an opening, hey, it’s gonna be a temporary, or did you think at some point if this continues on, they’re gonna move or? Yeah, I think we were always playing one foot in and out of that pool, you know? Because we didn’t really know. We did know that based on her… ability to work here it made more financial sense because a lot of the money I was making was tax-free. Don’t quote the IRS. No, but there’s an expat law, it’s like 126,000, I think it’s first, and then you have to spend a certain amount of days outside the country, blah, blah, blah, there’s much smarter people than me than probably listen to this and tell me I’m wrong or right. Anyway, we didn’t know. We were playing it by ear almost every single time. Some weeks it was brutal. Some weeks it was like, hey, I’m a terrible dad, I’m a terrible husband, I’m over here. There’s other weeks where it’s like, hey, this is just what we gotta do to get ahead. Again, remembering what 08, 09, 2010 looked like, 07, I knew that while the iron’s hot you use it, you strike, period. Because that opportunity may be fleeting. And you know it was, it was three years. So I went through two contracts there and I made the choice to come back home because I realized I was depriving my child and my wife of their father and husband. And coming from a broken home with a single mother, I knew exactly what the downstream effects of that looked like. I didn’t think it was fair to them. And frankly, I was just kinda becoming miserable too. Because it’s a grind, man, it’s three years, so just about three years of that. Two contract terms, I’d gotten promotion in that time, I had more responsibility, had a killer team though. Admittedly, they were awesome. If you guys ever see this, thank you very much for carrying me for two years. I’m being hyperbolic, but they were amazing. They made me feel welcome and everything like that. I was really lucky. I spoke some of the language, probably a lot worse than I thought I did. But yeah, it was a big catalyst for me to really prioritize my family and come back home.

Manuel Martinez: So then how you come back home and are you thinking, all right, well I’m just gonna continue my marketing career and this is what I’m gonna do, right? This is how I’m gonna keep going.

Michael Steffen: I came back and I didn’t like the city. I didn’t like the state of things. I didn’t like what had changed. And again, this kinda comes to the idea of like, hey, you really don’t realize how big your kids are getting until you see them in snapshots, right? So you take a photo, put it on the wall, and you’re like, whoa, you’re, so, yeah. It’s the same, it was the same thing, but the industry here had pivoted so drastically from when I had left and come back. City too had grown exponentially. This was during the first real influx of people from out of state moving here, not the first, but the first of my lifetime. So I didn’t know what I was gonna do. I really didn’t, I come back. I didn’t really set myself up for a future much to my su- and I really should have probably planned that out. I got an opportunity to work for a restaurant group again. I went back into restaurants, F and B. Very close friend of the family and very grateful for the opportunity because they took a chance too. Like, it didn’t make any sense to hire me on, but, you know, and they were like, hey, when are you gonna work with us? We’ve been looking to work with you for 10 years at this point. And I was like, oh, that’s amazing to hear. So I came back and I did that and that was a really good learning experience, again, going back into the hospitality space, really on the business end of it. I learned the back end of it. I learned more of the operation side, away from the marketing side, really understanding how small businesses move, shake, and, you know, how to deal with razor thin margins. And, you know, we did good business, but it was still, it was a learning experience coming from this big macro company, this Zibatsu, that was just massive. To, you know, black suit, black tie, white shirt, like, old school Japanese company that had very strict ways of doing things and very bureaucratic ways of doing things. To a small nimble, small business that’s just, you know, poking and sticking and moving and getting good revenue. And, you know, really looking at those lines- the bottom line, it was still a family atmosphere. It was great. That ran its course, I left I had an opportunity to go open the Palms with the station’s casino. Took that, again, some old friends from the Wynn XS days. And I think that was the moment that I realized I needed to change who I was at the end of that term. We had a year and a half to do this opening. Again, I used to have the worst luck. I’d come back into these things. None of my businesses have been slow grinds. You know what I mean? It’s been, hey, hurry up and wait, you know? And it’s, you got a year and a half to do three years worth of work. We opened the property and it was considered the most successful opening and now probably the most successful closing in Vegas history. So, but I learned a lot. I got a unique opportunity to sit in a board room with Frank and Lorenzo Fertitta. And that was just eyeopening to be able to sit in a room with guys like that at their level. And just hear what people like them find valuable. And not just the bottom line stuff, because like there’s a CFO and there’s, you know, all that existed already and I’d been dealing with that. But like, hey, what is important to people at this level? And I think that kind of helped me later as I got out of there to really- start understanding too, like, hey, there’s a whole different level of people that I now need to learn how to kind of move around. You know, we were doing very big partnership deals there. We were doing very big activations. The team was amazing. You know, people like to, I think, look back and talk negatively about that situation. I can’t do that because I’m really proud of the work we did on the marketing side. I’m proud of the team that we had. I think they all did really, really well. And I’m glad to see they’ve all done well subsequently after that. So yeah, that was a big opportunity. It was a big learning experience. And again, getting into being in a room with people like that, if you’re just a normal guy from a normal middle-class background is such a wild, eye-opening experience. You know, and they’re not the kind of like to fly off the handle for no reason. They were really thoughtful people, and it was really interesting and a great opportunity to learn with folks like that, want and need.

Manuel Martinez: Two things that I have there. So first one is, you know, you mentioned the connections that are kind of bringing you in. And they’re taking a chance on you, but they’re taking a chance on you because there’s something, right? It’s your work ethic it’s your relationship handling it’s all these different things. It doesn’t sound like you’re going through and just applying at random places. So a lot of this, it’s just connections Like, are you reaching out to people and saying, hey, I’m back, I’m available, or are you just, is it more? You’re reaching out to just, hey, I’m back in town, I wanna meet and catch up. And they’re just like, oh, oh, you’re back? What are you doing? And then they kind of bring you in. And what do you think about the skill set that you’ve developed that makes them say, hey, why don’t you come work for us?

Michael Steffen: So it wasn’t networking for the sake of networking. I think those disingenuous relationships, while beneficial are by their nature transactional. And there’s nothing wrong with that, but you’ve just gotta understand that that’s probably where it’s gonna live and die. And you’ve gotta show value again, to my earlier point, right? You gotta meet people where they are, you’ve gotta get all those things done in a very short amount of time, where it’s an organic relationship that I think I had with those people. And I still do, we still talk. They pull you in because there’s a known quantity there, and there’s a known ability to execute there, sure. But that also existed in a lot of other people too. I wasn’t somehow a magical person on the workforce here. I was just a normal guy. I think it’s because I took the time to build relationships. And I think that’s kinda what you were getting at too. It wasn’t just because they knew me, but it was because they valued the fact that I was willing to always look out for the team and the relationship first, and also execute on my job. Because a lot of you could just execute on your job, and then that’s just where it lives and dies, and they clock in their nine to five or their nine to six, whatever it is, and they go home. But when you try to build relationships and try to bridge gaps with people, and you care about keeping that, I think it always is gonna have value. And if I think anybody could ever take anything away from this, that would be probably my imparting message, is show value to relationships, build them, take the time. You never know where they’re gonna go. You never know what’s gonna happen Hell, I mean, a random relationship at jujitsu I had is what got me into tech. So it’s like, you can’t just go out and try to be like, “Hey, let me fill up,” and this is a very old dated term, Rolodex, right? This is how old I am. If I didn’t shave the size of my head, that’d be all white. But you’ve gotta take the time to build every single thing you put effort into. Because you never know how many sunrises you’re gonna have. So if you see some value somewhere in a person and they see it in you nurture it, grow it, care about them, not to your detriment all the time, obviously, you don’t wanna be somebody who just constantly gives to a never-ending well of takers. But at the same time, hey, if it’s worthwhile, I’ll go after it. And I don’t see younger folks doing that as much. That’s kinda sad because I think, hey, it’s worked for 100 years. Right.

Manuel Martinez: We didn’t develop it, right? It’s not something new That’s happening.

Michael Steffen: Yeah, exactly. And it can get weird. Yeah, sure, I mean, there’s been awkward situations where I’m like, hey, you’re crying on my shoulder right now. I don’t really know how I process this or we’re that close, but feel better? Like, you know what I mean? And not to be cold about it, but like, I wanna help you, and I don’t understand how I handle this. You gotta get through those weird moments where somebody has way too many beers and they say something completely off-key. You just kinda try to be like, hey, man, that isn’t really you. I get it, here’s a pass. Let’s try to salvage a relationship that maybe you ruined by that extra beer and like spitting off at the mouth to me. And taking the time and not just being like, okay, you’re dead to me. Like, you know, keeping it moving. Because I see it all the time, and I’m sure you do too. Where people are just like, no, there’s just too many politicians in a non-political space. You know, and it’s like, hey, you know, try to build relationships with people because not only can it help you down the line, but you’re gonna get more out of life from it. They’re gonna get more out of you being in their life. And if you guys gotta deal with each other, why would you not wanna make it a positive experience? Right?

Manuel Martinez: The other question I had there, as you mentioned, kind of being in these rooms, and one of the things that I think is very influential and more than I’ve realized at times is just exposure. Right? Like you mentioned, like, hey, I’m in this room. You don’t feel like, hey, I belong here, right?

Michael Steffen: Imposter syndrome was real

Manuel Martinez: And I get it its the Imposter syndrome. But then again, there’s also, there’s something that brought you there. Now, are you at the same level? Like, do you own a casino? Well, no, but there’s something, there’s value that you bring, but what do you, again, you don’t have to give details, but just kind of, were these meetings about, obviously, the property and stuff like that, and what did you take away from that? Because you mentioned, like, they think and they value things different. So like, from that experience, and I don’t know if it was just one meeting, multiple meetings, but exposure to that type of environment, like, what do you think you took away from that?

Michael Steffen: I think I took a lot away from that. I think not only did I learn from, learning what they needed or wanted from people who were on their team and they were trusting to get things done, but also the value in knowing answers to hard questions and be having the stones to stand up and say it. You know, because these are not screw around people. These are not people who are just gonna shoot it, shoot the breeze with you in a boardroom. They need answers to questions. Have your stuff dialed in, whatever it is. For me, it was the budgeting aspect of the marketing side. We were dealing with marketing budgets and, you know, CAPEX and OPEX budgets that were bigger than I’ve ever had an opportunity to deal with. And I was opening a $7 billion property in the Philippines with a team, right? So to put it in context, and we needed twice the results in half the time. So you’ve gotta be able to just know answers. And this comes to being kind of like focusing on your craft. I don’t think these people want people around them who don’t know what they’re talking about that are not serious people. Sure, have the empathy, but also be willing to again, go back to the hard skill of your job, know your job. Don’t have the opportunity to be in these rooms and not be able to execute, period. And they don’t want answers tomorrow. They don’t want you to check back or circle back on an email. There was a time and a place for that. And that was before this meeting. You’ve gotta be ready to perform whatever it is you’re doing. And that, I wasn’t a master in my craft. I don’t think I’d ever call myself that. I don’t think that would be ever fair to call myself. There’s people much better at than I was, but I was always, and you can ask anybody who was in those rooms, I was always willing to deliver an answer that was maybe hard to swallow, but was still factual. And people like that value that because they rarely see it. Everybody’s worried about their job. They’re like, oh, they’re gonna send me down to the other property. I’m gonna get off this cool one. Yeah, maybe, okay, sure. But at the same time, if these are people who don’t care about, not necessarily you, but they want something out of you and they’re paying you for it, deliver that, show the value upfront. He’s willing to say the hard thing. He’s willing to always make sure that he’s on top of his budgetary spends, his allocations and his drawdowns. If the CFO or the C-level board or the Fertitas brothers themselves were asking me anything, gotta be willing to execute. And I think being in those rooms was a wake up call for that. Because I had been on those kinds of projects in the Philippines, but there was, and obviously in the opening of Cromwell but at the same time, and Drey’s but it was, I think, even more hyper-focused because we had a even shorter amount of time. But I think it’s something to carry with me forever. To this day, if somebody asked me like, hey, what’s going on with this account? I can answer those questions. Where a lot of people will be like himming and hawing and all these other things. It’s like, you’ve still gotta focus yourself, still gotta hone that iron, get it sharp, be willing to execute when called upon because that’ll show professionalism. That’ll show your ability to excel and rise to the occasion. And that’s the only way you get invited back to those rooms. And you don’t wanna not be invited back to the next time. I mean hell every single week, it was like, am I gonna get put on stage here? Like, you know, but I looked forward to it. I knew I had to be sharp. I had to dress appropriately in that room. Even if they didn’t, like I’m not them, you know? You have to play the role, you have to be ready to execute. And I think I carry that with me to this day.

Manuel Martinez: And this may be like an unpopular opinion, right? But, you know, we hear about that work-life balance, but when you’re trying to move up and when you’re getting to those, for them, sure, maybe they have a little bit more work-life balance, right? Because they’ve grinded to that point. But you talked about honing your craft and doing that. So as you’re kind of building up, and again, you’re never gonna be the master of it all. I mean, maybe you are, there are some people that that’s, you know, they can do that, but at least the master to the level that you, at least at that time, were capable or wanted to work towards. And is it knowing that you were gonna be in those types of situations that you felt prepared enough? And again, with whatever information that you have, but is it just, did you develop the confidence because you’re like, well, I’ve done everything I’ve done. I can do, I prepared everything I can, and I just have to be confident that this is the answer. No, sounds like even in the past, right? Just owning the outcome or the responsibility, saying like, that’s on me, here’s what it is. If I’m wrong, I’m wrong. I just, you know, at the time of this recording, I’d released another one where, you know, I had Ray on here and he mentioned the same thing. Like he had the confidence to say, hey, this is the answer. He did get fired for it, but then eventually it came back around. Like he was right and he had, his information was factual and he was able to kind of circumvent it as a contractor. But again, you’re right, people at that level, because this was a CTO of AT&T. That’s a big deal. They value that and saying, hey, this is, it’s wrong, or this is what it is, and I’m going to stick by it. As opposed to just being like, well, I think, well, you know, not trying to give them the answer they want to hear, but the answer that they need to hear.

Michael Steffen: Yeah, no, you’re right. There’s, there’s never, nobody ever said, and I think this is just to your point, like in Ray in this case he personifies it by what you just said. You can still get in trouble for being correct. You’re still going to get your hands slapped for doing the right thing. No good deed goes unpunished, right? You know what I mean? You could be 100% on the level and be willing to tell them the truth and still not understand too that they’re human, they’re going to fly off the handle, but they may come back around to your point and be like, hey, you know, he’s the only one with integrity. And I had a room full of people who were just saying yes. It’s the one guy or a guy who stands up and says no, and they’re right. That’s a big deal and there’s a lot of value there. Yeah, I think that’s a huge, huge thing. And it did come from being before and getting screamed at and finding the solution. Sometimes the person screaming at you is in the wrong. And you’ve got to kind of try to mitigate their, obviously their initial anger, but say like, sir, ma’am there’s nothing I could do about that. It is what it is, you know? Yeah, it’s tough. And it definitely helped me there. You know, it’s that whole experience and not to bring in negativity, but like the minute that property closed because the earnings call what it wasn’t what it was and the board killed it. And you know, there’s been subsequently news stories about that afterwards. So I’m not like spilling any beans here. it is what it is right? It was a big demoralizer for me too, you know? And it put me in a pretty dark place- not dark, but definitely not a good place after that because I had done so much and sacrificed so much. This had been my third opening at that point at the biggest single budget that I’ve ever managed with the biggest, second biggest team I’ve ever managed with the biggest list of deliverables I’ve ever had underneath my plate. And for that just to end like that, I think it was actually what pushed me to tech in a big way because that’s when I started taking time for me and trying to realize too like, hey, you know, what do you want? What do you want to do? Cause everybody’s telling you you’re miserable right now. And it’s not just cause you got laid off, you know? And it didn’t end well. It’s more like this is clearly not fulfilling to you. So what do you want to do? 38 ish, it’s hell of a time to figure that out. So.

Manuel Martinez: Well, and this is kind of one of the things that I think was kind of appealing to me with your story, right? Is you weren’t like, well, I’m going to get into tech early. And you’re not the first person I’ve heard that, you know, later on, like in the thirties that has moved on through a different career and pivoted into tech. And I think that’s one of the things that’s great about the industry is, you know, like you said, it’s not before like, oh, it’s computers and it’s tech. There’s so much, right? Like we throw that around loosely, but there’s so many different roles and opportunities. It’s not just cybersecurity and networking and, you know, developers and there’s so much more around it just because technology is prevalent everywhere. So you mentioned kind of relationships and jiu-jitsu and that’s kind of what helped you get that pivot. So tell me a little bit more about that.

Michael Steffen: So this is a big one for me. So at the time I didn’t know what I was going to do, right? I was working back with the restaurant group and again, amazing that they even opened the door to me again, right? Didn’t really have any idea what I was going to do. Good friend of mine and mentor in the space, Chris McDaniels, who I would love for you to talk to, by the way, he is co-owner of a company called CTQ here locally. It’s a real like, these guys are all prior service cyber weapons officers and they all came out instead of working for the big five or the big four, whatever it is now, they opened their own shop and they were just scrappy guys with, you know, trying to make do and they know they could go get the paychecks, but they’re willing to fight and build something here. And they started here in Colorado and Wisconsin where the three major guys are more than that. The three locations where all the guys are. He was at jiu-jitsu with me and we would do, you know, we’d go pretty often, I mean, a lot of free time at the time, right? And he was like, man, you are miserable. And I was like, hell, that’s a punch to the face while we’re sweating in each other’s face. Like, thank you, you know, like, it’s kind of a low blow, but he’s, I was like, really? It was like, he’s like, yeah, man, like you’re just miserable. I was like, well, I just got laid off, you know, a year or so or whatever. I didn’t know what the hell I was going to do. I felt like coming out of the Palms and that time of stations, that team was kind of, we were getting bad press and, you know it wasn’t great. And I felt like I was kind of persona nongrada and the job market had definitely shifted. He’s like, well, dude, like, what did you love about your previous gigs? I told him. I loved the analytical thinking and the problem solving. And I love the idea that I can go to a data solution and the numbers were the numbers. But it wasn’t all about the finance. It was still kind of that gray area of, you know, marketing isn’t exactly always going to bring you money, right? It’ll create sales funnel, but it’s not always going to be a huge revenue driver. And he’s like, well, you know, that exists in other spaces. And I was like, well, like what? You know what I mean? I’m talking to a cyber weapons guy, like, like what? You know what I mean? Not thinking too that, you know, he’s a small business operator that does this full time. He’s like, you might want to try to get into cyber. And I was like, dude, you know, that ship sailed in like my late teens, early twenties. Like, what are we talking about here? You know, I’m the marketing guy. Like, what kind of, and you know, I’m thinking tech, like what kind of hard skills do I have? You guys are light years beyond anywhere I’ll ever be. They still are, by the way, you know, that hasn’t changed. Skill wise, it’s crazy. Some of the stuff I see. He’s like, look, man, just do me a favor. Just take a chance of what I’m telling you. You know, this was after we just try to kill each other for an hour and a half. Go get your sec plus. Go get comtia sec plus. Just try it. Hey, if you hate it it’s all theory anyway, really, besides some practical stuff. Like, maybe you’ll love it and you pick up something that’s more keyboard time or maybe you hate it and you know, hey, listen, it costs you what, 150 bucks call it a day. I was like, all right, man, whatever So I did it. And he was like, oh, okay. Like, do you like it? You know, I kind of checked back later and I was like, yeah, kind of do, because it kind of just checks out. Like checks a lot of boxes for me. I’m solving problems and you know, yeah, at that time they were theoretical. I wasn’t exactly like, you know, on the command line or anything like that, you know, but I was, I was doing the work and I was kind of understanding it. And I liked the idea that it was like a whole new field and I could still learn because I don’t think I’d kind of taken the opportunities to learn my previous experiences in marketing for granted. This was truly a whole new avenue of approach for learning that I hadn’t explored in 20 years, arguably. So I was really jazzed about that. I was like, hey man, you know, I get stuck on this old dog. He’s got a few tricks on him. You know what I mean? So he was like, all right, man, well, look, you want to think, you’re going to need to learn some hard skills. Go to try hack me. And you know, at that time there was the marketing machine was like ramping up and they were saying, get your sick plus you too can get $175,000 a year job with that alone. I think we all know that’s not true. But you know, some people they got the chops so they could do it.

Manuel Martinez: Good marketing, right?

Michael Steffen: Yeah, hey, we’re all guilty to falling for propaganda and marketing once in a while. It does exist for a reason. Even me, right? Even guys higher, gals a little higher in the food chain than marketing and I am still fall for it. So I was like, he’s like, okay, try to shoot for the top 10% on TryHackMe Just, you know, go through learning paths and get some boxes done, you know, whatever. So I did. And you know, box checked, right? He’s like, oh, okay, well, what do you want to learn? Because you just kind of opened the door to a lot of learning opportunity there. What do you want to do? You like blue team? You want to go pen testing? What do you want to do? And I thought those were binary, right? You know, it was like yes or no. It was a blue pill, red pill, whatever. And I was like, I don’t know, man, like to be honest with you, I was getting towards my 40s. I had already had carpal tunnel at that point, you know, because I had to spend the hours while still having a job, while still being a dad. But you know, so it was constantly typing and I definitely didn’t have an ergonomic setup. Getting RSI, I was like, I don’t know, man, if I can keep up with the cats that are willing to do 14 hours a day to, you know, mitigate problems like that, or you know, whatever we’re doing. I was like, alright well, you know, I liked the idea of GRC. It was kind of like something that was just coming to the marketing forefront at the time. I liked the idea of, kind of like the theory-based stuff, but that still had some practical application of hard skills. And he’s like, man, I’m going to be honest with you. I think you’re wasting your time at a lot of that. Like get the certifications to get the certifications if you want to, like if they interest you. But don’t think that they’re going to open a door right away to a real paying job. I mean, they may, you know, hey, look, you know, it has happened, stranger things have happened. You know, unless you’re going to go for your CISSP or CISM or, you know, whatever else acronyms we’re going to throw at you that really open doors, I think you’re probably better off just trying to leverage the soft skills that you already have with a little bit of hard knowledge and hard skill that you’ve found over the past year and a half, two years at that point. And I’m like, yeah, but you know, look, how do you go to a big company, like let’s say Oracle, CrowdStrike, whoever pick one, and say like, I want to bring soft skills to your table. You know, like it’s just not, it didn’t seem like a real sell, you know, because again, I was coming from marketing. And he’s like, no man you gotta understand That’s like almost absent in the entire field. We’re dealing with like people who can excel at amazing technical levels, but sometimes can’t talk their way out of a parking ticket. You know what I mean? It’s like, you’ve got to be able to understand that like your skills are in demand, even here where you think they have no value whatsoever. He’s like, you got to change your mindset. Because like even, you know, those guys, they don’t have a marketing guy. They have somebody who does the work. They don’t have a marketing guy. They don’t have a GTM guy per se. He’s like, look at those fields. Look at those opportunities. Hell, look at account management. You’re good with people. You’ve always, you told me, and I think we’ve covered in this pod like always had the opportunity to try to meet people where they are and bridge a gap and problem solve for them. And there’s that customer service and hospitality background. You could bring all that to the table and really see a future in this. And I’m like, yeah, well, this beats checking tickets and you know, whatever I’m doing, so it looks like, you know, like, all right, yeah, let’s do that. So I’ve had a unique opportunity. I volunteered with them at Defcon for three years in a row now. I helped run their CTF and just being around guys and gals at that level of intelligence and that level of hard skill who can execute at those levels in the fields they’re working with has been an amazing opportunity. And, you know, I’m in awe every single time still at 40 something years old, when I walk in a room with these cats, just the amount of things that they can do and they understand that I know in my heart of hearts, I will never understand. And they just have it down intuitively because of their time both in service and just personal experiences and personal pursuits. And I think I undervalued what I brought to that table. And I still have a huge amount of imposter syndrome every time I’m at the table with them. I mean, the weekly calls I have with them are awkward as hell. You know, like they’re, and I think, you know, that transition there and becoming now an account manager and looking to do, not sales per se, because I think sales gets a bad wrap in tech. And, you know, you have this idea of what a tech bro and tech sales, sales looks like. I’m not that. I mean, by looking at me, like, I think I don’t eat enough salads at like, you know, I mean, sweet green or something. I don’t wear nearly enough Arc’teryx and, you know, that kind of thing. So I try to meet people where they are. I think that’s still a useful and valuable skill because at the end of the day, everybody can have an amazing hard skills, but we’re not machines. We’re people. We got to deal with people no matter what field we’re in. And I hope that people will still see a value in bringing those skills to the, even a tech world later, because they’re really, really successful people who have soft skills and only a little bit of hard skills in tech. And I think it’s a whole side of that business that just isn’t discussed. And they think if you’re good at soft skills and you’re just going to go to sales, that’s all you’re going to do. You know, and I think that’s kind of doing the value of those skills into service in a field that really needs it now because it’s growing exponentially.

Manuel Martinez: I believe you’re right. So it’s not just sales that is the only place where you can have those soft skills, right? like Is it probably more prevalent? Yes. But there’s a number of other ones and I’ve talked to people and it’s like, all right, if you have the… skillset and run again, you don’t have to be the expert. Maybe in some situations you might have to be, but like there’s tech marketing, right? Where it’s a soft skill, you’ve got to be able to go through a market or, you know, I don’t want to say promotions, but there’s a lot of those types of roles, like in saying, hey, I see it now, especially with big companies, but even with smaller ones, to be the person it goes through and if you have somebody that is very technical, just be able to go through and understand… that information. You don’t have to be the expert, but if you have the soft skills. So for example, like me, I am by no means the person that knows everything, but I have enough knowledge to say, oh, okay, I understand your problem. Conceptually, I get it. I’ve never dealt with that sort of thing. I understand the problem you’re having. I get some of the things that you might be dealing with and I can speak to you and if you’re frustrated and go through and kind of manage that and then say, okay, now let me go talk to the person that knows everything that you’re really asking for and be able to bridge that gap and say, okay, hey, boom. Now you kind of go through. There’s, again, there’s so many different avenues and I’m hoping that at least now you’ve kind of realized that those transferable skills those soft skills and not undervaluing that because especially in tech, I think it’s… it is undervalued because it’s not as prevalent. People don’t talk about it as much, but it is one of those skills that I’ve seen them like, that can easily set you apart from a group of all these technical people that can’t talk, can’t communicate, can’t, you know, even if you are technical, just be able to go through and meet people when they’re at and kind of manage conflict and stuff like that within there. Like, I don’t even have to be a manager, but just if you and I have to work together, I can’t talk to you.

Michael Steffen: It’s valuable, right?

Manuel Martinez: There’s a problem.

Michael Steffen: I agree, 100%. You know, again, project management. You know, I work for a company that does staffing right now. I can’t tell you how many times we see people looking for good project managers and a lot of that, sure, there’s hard skill at that. But a lot of that’s relationship management. A lot of this people management, and not from a truly perspective of like, hey, here’s an allocated resource on team and time, it’s more like there’s gonna be interpersonal problems there and you’re not gonna have the wherewithal to have to just pull into HR at every problem. You guys are gonna have to figure it out right there because you have a deadline on delivering and that’s a soft skill and you gotta focus there. And I can’t even tell you enough of like how much you hit the nail on the head to undervaluing soft skills in it. But at the same time, I understand it because it’s a culture of doing. And they look at it as a product being put out now. And sometimes that’s tough for people with soft skills to articulate and show value. Like, hey, X, Y, and Z, they can’t talk the way out of a paper bag, but they’re producing this and this is bringing us what we want. And it’s a hard thing and it was code hours or whatever we’re doing, right? It’s a product where you’re like, hey, but yeah, I brought in the people who are interested in paying for us to that to begin with. There’s value there too. Or, hey, that’s just a relationship I had. I’m not even sales guy or gal. I’m just, you know, I take the time to go out and network, not for the sake of network, just to sake of getting to know my colleagues in the field and peers and you know, pickleball big right now, right? Like I go take the time and I ask how their kids are and we go play pickleball because I like being around them. And I’m not even in the sales department, right? Like that’s, yeah, I think people need to start valuing that, but you know, who am I, right? So, you know, we’ll see if it happens.

Manuel Martinez: We’re just figuring it out right? As we go. So now, you know, you’ve made this pivot into tech and you know, kind of looking back now at your career, what are some of the things kind of looking back that you, you know, if you had to impart knowledge you’d say, hey, here’s the one thing that I think served me really well and here’s the one thing that I wish I would have done a little bit different or learned. from that

Michael Steffen: I really wish I had stuck to that CIS degree or the equivalent back in my early days. That would’ve been great but at the same time, would I have my entire life turned upside down at 08 09 probably? Would I ever met my wife? Probably not. So, you know, I guess hindsight, right? But the one thing I wish that that has served me well was taking the time to understand people and not judging them for what they’re doing. Because I think that is unfortunately a very big part of today’s culture. You know, we’re very materialistic and we say like, oh, they don’t wear X, Y, or Z, so therefore they have no value or they’re not at my level or whatever we’re talking. That has served me well as not being that, you know? The only reason I wear this watch is because it was my dad’s watch and he passed. It’s like, I don’t have no need for these kinds of things. It just has sentimental value. Like showing things that are, I think would be, see, valuing things that are real versus just transactional is a big deal. I wish people took the time for that. I’m glad that I did because it served me well. But sometimes via osmosis, right? Sometimes you have to be the sacrificial lamb to rise back up as a Phoenix out of the ashes, right? So, you know, those are the things that I’m really glad that I had, that have stuck with me, that paid off. Being a people person, even though maybe sometimes naturally I am a little bit of a misanthrope sometimes when I want to go in my cave and, you know, focus on fixing my own car kind of thing. But at the same time, like there’s value there. I’m glad it’s stuck with me. Things I wish I changed. I wish I had been more a little due diligent and honing in some of those things that had value early. recognizing them and not just discounting them when even though they were serving me really well, I didn’t put any value in it because I couldn’t do X, Y, or Z. I am truly blessed to be able to be humbled as much as I am. I suggest anybody get into something that is tough and then try to learn it from the start later in life because you get complacent, right? Like you’re not a woodworker, so you buy a house that needs woodworking. Like you’re gonna learn it, you know? It’s good, it’s good to do those hard things. It’s, and I want more people to walk away with that ability too. If you’re not a social person, try to learn it. Maybe that’s your hard thing, right? Maybe you can code an amazing product, put it out to market and everybody’s excited and you built the next Netflix or whatever you’re doing. Try the other thing that’s hard, lean in.

Manuel Martinez: So I appreciate you kind of answering all my questions. You were telling me about your experiences and now I just kind of want to give you the opportunity to either kind of summarize your career, like your parting thought whatever that might be to kind of wrap this up.

Michael Steffen: Summarize my career, I think I’m still building it, right? Because I’m so new to this field. It’s only been about three years. Some of that was even volunteer work just to get my foot in the door, right? And get to know, be in their same room. Some parting thoughts, I would say, to my earlier point, do the hard thing. Even if the hard thing doesn’t seem like it’s gonna have a lot of value for you because I wouldn’t be able to feed my family right now if I didn’t take the chance. Doesn’t matter how old you are, you can still learn new things. It might get a little harder, sure, but there’s a cost for everything. Don’t be complacent. I guess this is four parting thoughts. But don’t be complacent to just say, “Hey, I’m only capable of this and this is what I bring to market.” The world’s changing every day. You see it in the headlines. The demand for what’s in demand is changing. And you have to be willing to rise to it if you wanna succeed. I’m not saying go be, you know, if you have no experience, go shoot for a CISSP tomorrow. But at the same time, like, “Hey, take the steps if you’re interested.” Take the chance. You’d be surprised how many hours you spend doing things that are completely of no value.

Manuel Martinez: I wanna touch a little bit on kind of what you said, so… Kind of volunteering. And I think that that’s a good way for people who are trying to get in. Or even if you’re in and just trying to get exposed to different areas is finding those organizations and volunteers, they’re always looking forward. Like you mentioned, Black Hat. You know, a lot of these professional tech organizations, they’re looking for volunteers and that will put you potentially in a room with people that you may not know otherwise. a lot of those- as volunteers. And I’ve read a book by Lauren Hassan that developed her book and she talks about that that’s what she did. She volunteered. She was trying to go to these, you know, like, “Hey, I wanna go to Black Hat. I can’t attend, right? I can’t afford the ticket. Hey, volunteer. Now, that doesn’t mean that you can come and go and walk the space and you’re just- you’re working, but you’re exposed to that. You get to see what’s kind of behind the curtain.

Michael Steffen: That’s a huge, huge opportunity. Huge. And then, predominantly, I’m sure a lot of people are viewing this from Las Vegas. We’re in a very unique opportunity in this city especially, that we have so many conventions come here. Whether it’s tech, whether it’s concrete, whether it’s gaming, whatever it is, manufacturing and automation, everybody from, not everybody, but a lot of different fields converge here for about six months out of the year. Go volunteer. take the time. If there’s a networking event in a field you wanna be in, you have no idea what those people in the room, what they want or need out of their next hire until you’re asking them, go take the time, you know? And it’s so easy just to be like, “I don’t wanna fight traffic in the 15” I get it. “I don’t wanna go park for 30 bucks” I get it. Like, I’ve done it, I know, it sucks, it’s terrible. But at the same time, I would never have the opportunity to be where I am, and not that I’m terribly far in the food chain, but I’m able to feed my family and I have a unique opportunity inside the tech space. And I wouldn’t be there if I didn’t just say, yes, I’m going to give you eight hours for four hours- four days a week during DEFCON to stand at a booth and wear a polo and answer questions about a CTF. You know, I would never have been able to meet the people I’ve met, some of those I’ve referred over here, and those are amazing people that I’ve met because of that, because I did volunteer, volunteer, take the time. Take the time, take the effort put the effort in, rather… in anything you do, because you never know where it’s gonna pay out. You just don’t. Even if it’s just like a new lifelong friend, hey, you just made, in a world where all stuck to our phone, it’s nice to have real friends, right?

Manuel Martinez: Well, and especially like, you know later on, or even earlier in your career, you just, I have, luckily through this, made some amazing friends, and even outside of this, attending some of these network events is just, you know, you always hear that, like, “Oh, it’s hard to make friends as an adult.” Well, it is-

Michael Steffen: You tried? yeah

Manuel Martinez: But again, Are you trying? Like, what are you doing to make friends? Like, “Oh, I’m just at home, and I’m not making friends.” Yeah I can imagine that that would be tough

Michael Steffen: Yeah, you’re not gonna know, like, you’re not gonna get to know somebody just because you know them on, you know, wherever you’re talking to them online. You have to also meet, too. There’s just, we’re people. We’re social animals, you know? So, yeah, take the time, go out. Especially with the unique opportunity in Las Vegas. Even if you’re coming in here as a convention-goer or a tourist, and you’re there at a convention that you, like, world, you wanna get into concrete, you’re a concrete guy or gal, and world of concrete’s here, go! Just, there’s nothing to say you can’t go buy a polo shirt and a decent pair of pants and shoes, and go! You know, it’s like, you may not get into the con, sure, but there’s events afterwards. There’s breakaways. You know, you wanna get into gaming and leisure? Hell, we have an entire thing for that, you know? Take the time, you know to your point. Try, effort, effort, just put it in. It’s not always easy.

Manuel Martinez: Well, again I appreciate you kinda sharing your experiences and your story, and, you know, hoping that people, you know, take at least something from this, right? Like, even just me, I’m like, “Oh, okay, you know, “I didn’t think about it this way,” or, you know, just kinda reinforcing some things, and I’m like, “Oh, okay, well, I’m not completely off base.”

Michael Steffen: Sure, yeah. No, thank you, thank you for the opportunity. And, you know, it’s been amazing to finally get to sit down with you, and I appreciate it, so thanks.

Manuel Martinez: And for everyone that is watching and listening, again, thank you for your continued support, and continue to plug in and download th download the knowledge, and until next time, thank you.