From El Salvador Electical Engineering to Gaming QA Lead with Carlos Matal | Ep013

In this engaging episode of Career Downloads, host Manuel Martinez sits down with Carlos Matal, a seasoned QA Lead who shares his inspiring journey from El Salvador to becoming a key player in Las Vegas’s tech scene.

Episode Highlights:

• Carlos’s unique path from electrical engineering in El Salvador to software QA in the US
• Overcoming language barriers and cultural differences in the American tech industry
• The art of job hunting and standing out in a competitive market
• Transitioning from manual testing to automation and becoming a QA Lead
• Balancing career growth with family responsibilities
• The importance of soft skills and adaptability in tech careers
• Insights into the world of Quality Assurance and its role in software development
• Tips for breaking into the tech industry without prior experience

Key Takeaways:

1. Persistence pays off: Carlos’s story of repeatedly applying and improving his skills is a testament to the power of determination.
2. Continuous learning is crucial: From learning English to mastering new technologies, Carlos emphasizes the importance of always expanding your skillset.
3. Cultural intelligence matters: Carlos shares valuable insights on navigating cultural differences in corporate America.
4. QA is more than just testing: Discover the difference between being a tester and a quality assurance engineer.
5. Work-life balance in tech: Learn how Carlos manages his career while prioritizing family.

Whether you’re a tech enthusiast looking to break into the industry or a seasoned professional seeking inspiration, Carlos’s journey offers valuable lessons and insights for anyone looking to advance their career in technology.

Tune in to this episode of Career Downloads for an honest, engaging, and informative conversation about the realities of building a successful tech career from the ground up.

Manuel: Hi everyone, my name is Manuel Martinez and this is another episode of Career Downloads where each episode I basically hit the refresh button, bring on a different guest to really learn more about their background, their job history and really try to uncover any techniques or tips that they’ve picked up along the way as far as how they’ve managed their career. So with me today I have Carlos Matal. So welcome Carlos.

Carlos: Thank you.

Manuel: And, if you can just real quick just tell me where you’re at now, like you know you can tell me your employer not tell me, but basically tell me what is your current role and just a quick summary we’ll get to it eventually but just so that people can now understand where you are currently at, give me your role and what you do there.

Carlos: So right now I’m working with the small gaming company, casino gaming company, since we’re in Las Vegas right, it’s the technology that you know like the industry that is kind of like the biggest industry in town. I work for this company and it’s my role is QA lead. I’ve been doing QA for a long time, it’s software QA because we also do manufacturing but it’s you know my role is more like it’s software versus hardware because we also have hardware guys but it’s separate. So I do software automation and I’m a lead but the company is pretty small, we don’t have more than I would say less than 10 engineers. So I only lead one person and a couple of interns in a couple of projects, not really I’m not really like a manager or a supervisor, I just kind of like decide what we’re doing when it comes to testing.

Manuel: Got it, okay and what I’ve been doing all with all my guests now, so now we kind of know where you’re at now, we’re going to go back and if you just can give me a, again share as much or as little as you want but just give me a summary of kind of where you kind of grew up and then what eventually got you interested into technology.

Carlos: So I’m from El Salvador, I was born and raised over there and I was studying electrical engineering over there in the national university, so that’s what got me, well actually my high school was like an electric, I forgot how it was called something like electrotechnia, something like this is like electrical and electronics at the same time and it was a three year high school so that’s what got me into technical stuff let’s say. So after that I like whatever things I learn about electricity and then I decided to study electrical engineering and in electrical engineering they introduced everything related to computers so that’s how I got into computers and from there I wasn’t able to finish over there because I decided to move before I completed my degree so I came here to the US and completed my degree here.

Manuel: And so then you completed your electrical engineering degree? So how much did you finish in El Salvador versus how much you finished here?

Carlos: So the National University, National de El Salvador, it’s a pretty hard university like you have to actually study and study and study, for engineering you had to have on, you couldn’t do it just by yourself because it was pretty demanding so you had to have a group of friends with whom you could study, right? So I studied there like five and a half years but still I still have one more year to go because it’s pretty hard so to give you an example there was only like when you already advanced let’s say like on your third or fourth year let’s say out of 40 people in a class maybe 10 were passing that class and if you have five classes at the same time there was almost no way you would pass all of them. So you had to choose it’s like okay I think I’m not going to pass this one so I’m going to focus on this other three or this other four. So it takes a long time, a lot of the people that I knew that they were ahead of me they were like it goes like getting smaller and smaller and smaller and we started like maybe 250 people on the first year which is nothing really electrical engineering related but more like calculus and physics and stuff like that and then when you are about to graduate they’re like five guys graduating or three guys or two sometimes one it was crazy so that’s why it’s supposed to be like five years but I was already in my fifth and a half year and I still have one more year to go when I decided to move to the US because I had a residency since I was a little kid but I never lived here and it was going to expire so I had to renew and it’s like okay do I stay and forget about living in the US or do I move and see if I can continue my education over there and that’s what I did.

Manuel: And where did you move to so when you kind of came in?

Carlos: I came to Las Vegas or like my first town let’s say

Manuel: Okay

Carlos: I came to Las Vegas and then maybe like three years ago I was living in Richmond, near Richmond Virginia for like four years so I live only in Las Vegas and in that area my entire time here.

Manuel: So then when you moved to Las Vegas so I’m assuming you finished your degree here in Las Vegas so you went to UNLV finished that probably like you said like a year left?

Carlos: No I had to study another four years here because I was also working so at the end it took me they gave me a lot of credits it wasn’t easy to get the credits because you know they’re trying for you to take more credits and pay so I had to kind of like fight it’s like hey how do you want me to take the electronics one lab that takes you know several credits and all the Fridays I have to be there just for this thing when I when you already gave me credits for you know electronics one electronics two electromagnetism is like I don’t need that you know it’s something where you learn the basic things and I already passed that is like so it took me a year to get all the credits that I actually needed or wanted and that’s why and I was also working so it was like a part-time student, full-time worker so it took me four years. I think in total I started in El Salvador in 2000 and I graduated in 2010 so ten years.

Manuel: But you finished yeah that’s the important part.

Carlos: Yeah

Manuel: Okay and then so you graduated electrical engineer and then I’m assuming you started to try to look for those types of positions and then how did that?

Carlos: It’s it’s interesting because in Latin America I think it’s a little bit different from how you learn how you know that work is in the US here most people know that you know you have to get experience for them for so then you can get a better job over there we just think you know as long as I have my degree I’m set and it wasn’t like that and I was thinking you know it’s interesting I saw your book over here Ego is like I came with Ego you know I was thinking I’m an electrical engineer come on I’m not gonna be you know I want a good job like right away and it wasn’t like that. So then you know looking for jobs looking for jobs the sad part in my opinion from living in this town is that most maybe not most but a lot of the companies that go and recruit from the university they’re related to military stuff. You know and I didn’t want to be part of that so and I couldn’t because I have family in El Salvador so if you need a secret clearance or something like this they’re like if you have your sister is over there so no way you’re gonna get to the you know those top secret things. So and because an electrical engineer you you work with secret stuff right so it wasn’t something that I could get in but I also didn’t want to and I was lucky that casino gaming it’s all over town right so I could get into into testing pretty much I started working for the university at the beginning. Well actually started in IT for casino but that that wasn’t engineering to me it was just like you know like some support. It was good for me because I didn’t speak English I could understand it I could read it but speaking it still I’m still learning. So I was lucky to apply for a job in a small casino where the, my supervisor was really cool he pretty much told me I see that your English is not good but if you improve it I’m gonna give you a chance. So you can start in the IT department but you’re gonna have to answer the phone and when you answer the phone you have to get better at it right. So it pushed me to learn you know I was like whenever I wasn’t the phone I was some people were like it’s okay you know I can understand and some people are like why did you put this guy answering the phone you know like he doesn’t understand anything. So I had to do it pretty fast it’s like kind of like a couple of months and I was already people were already saying like hey this guy is doing a good job because now we can understand him stuff like that right. So it helped me speed up the the language barrier that I still have not that bad anymore.

Manuel: So then you did the kind of like a help desk or answer in phones for a while and it sounds like you improved quite a bit and people were noticing not only just the language barrier but I’m sure you were also picking up the skills to be able to help people with their actual problems?

Carlos: Yeah.

Manuel: So then how did? What made you then at that point as you’re getting these skills what either propelled you to move on to the next role? Did you promote up? Did you move out? And kind of what was you know what was that process like?

Carlos: Yeah. I always the way I am is that it does even when I when I came in I didn’t have a good job let’s say I was busing tables I was already thinking I’m gonna be a server you know. So I was like I stole the menu so I can study it and know what the ingredients are and I’m gonna be a server you know. So when I was in IT, I was like I’m gonna be the director. I’m gonna be you know and I was I was hoping to to grow right on my career. However, the company was bought by another company and they relocated us from town that is outside of Las Vegas to something in Vegas and I was able. I think I don’t remember exactly how it was but while that the transition was happening I found a job with the university. And because I was still taking classes I went to the interview and I like the the manager right? What he told me the project was about some imaging it was really cool because instead of getting the transcripts from students from other places that we’re gonna study in UNLV. They have to everybody has to type in you know like you study these classes and you have these grades and and then some of these are gonna be transfer credits and some other ones you have to take right. So they have these OCR optical character recognition project with the scanner and the software that it was gonna be kind of automating the input of this transcript. So it was a new project and I was pretty much the one that started it like it was the idea of the manager and they had everything bought up but they didn’t have anybody to do it. So I started with another guy and the other guy was also studying and he didn’t have a lot of time. So it was pretty much just me and it’s funny because that’s what made me get into automation because it was like a 30 minutes or 35 minutes for every transcript you know like all the fields you have to put. So that the scanner was grabbing for different templates let’s say the University of California like some University of California a lot of people come to Vegas because it’s like very close right. So they had like let’s say three thousand students per year so they wanted this is a priority you know you have to have the template for this one so that we. How do you say? Like process these new students faster. So while doing that it was like a huge manual for this software right and it’s like old school software old school by the time right I think it was like 2006, 2006 or 2007 I remember. It was just so slow you know and I had to do this and it was boring I have to click here click there and create this and it’s like. So I told my manager is like there must be an easier way to do this is it okay if I take some time to research and he’s like yeah take your time if you find something is gonna be pretty cool and I found some. I think it was called Auto AutoIt. It’s a Windows based automation software that could do the clicks you know enter fields text fields put some text in the fields and. And I found it and that was kind of like my first thing that I how do you say like? What you when you do something better you know like you improve something?

Manuel: Right you just the first time that you improved a process or a project.

Carlos: It went from like 30 to 35 minutes to five minutes and that was like you know. And I got into it I like it that is the first time I was well in school I did some programming because I had to do it not because I needed it right but over there I had I had I wrote some scripts that made things easier. And I also learned about regular expressions because sometimes the 8 if it was thinking that it was a B or the B was thinking it was A when it comes to grades you know so I learned about regular expressions and automation at the same time. So it was what made me I guess be who I am now when it comes to to work. You know use now I’m a QA lead and I do a lot of automation testing.

Manuel: So then that that process I’m sure that that at least at a minimum with your manager kind of gave you a lot of recognition to say hey this is somebody that? I mean could have you could have kept going and doing the click click click and I’ve been there I’ve had those types of roles where the first time it’s good to learn what the process is. But then it’s boring.

Carlos: You just yeah and you can even do it wrong because you’re already doing it for so long repetitive right so it’s like whatever you just. So the machines don’t don’t get bored you know they just do it.

Manuel: And did that help get you recognition or promotion or raise?

Carlos: Yeah my manager was a really cool guy I really I really like working with him and he’s like you know I’m gonna request a raise for you. But because I was kind of like not an intern but they had a different name for that position it’s like he’s a student first and then a worker right. So I, universities normally have well-paid positions right but I wasn’t one of those I was like a very low pay. But he’s like oh you know you deserve this and then the review was good things about me and then they gave me a little raise and and it was good mostly for me you know to find out that there are things that can be improved. And I don’t know if after that or before but I’m now I’m I’m always trying to find something. If I have to do this many times I want to do it easier or more efficient even when they like if I’m driving to work and I’m like I take the the roads that takes me in the map right but then I find oh no if I take this other road is gonna be better and I just keep improving little things.

Manuel: And then as you’re going through you’re working and you’re being a student. Did you stop working at UNLV when you graduated or how did that?

Carlos: Because the salary was low I wanted to get out right and make more money. So I believe and I was also partying at the same time. I’m from El Salvador and over there you know like you learn you know not everybody right but I was you know I had friends that whenever we had a test after we celebrate. We go have some drinks or whatever right. So I never work over there my mom was taking care of you know school and my clothes and where I was living and I was already old. You know I came to the US when I was 24 and I never worked before. So I had to come and work you know whenever I had money I wanted to have fun. So I was it was it was the busiest time because I was working studying and partying at the same time. So I needed more money you know if you want to party you you need a bit more money.

Manuel: It’s not free.

Carlos: That’s right so that was that everybody wants to make more money right. So that was the main thing make more money to get out of the university. But at the same time the university pays really well there were some guys that it was like a position that never existed in my department was created. Because some guy that was on the top left and in my opinion it was like I don’t mean to speak bad about the university but this probably happens everywhere right. It’s like oh I’m gonna create this this new position because we need this and I’m gonna put my buddy here. And this guy, the salaries are public so I saw this guy coming in now he was my boss he’s making like five times what I make and he’s not doing a lot. So I also wanted to leave because I didn’t feel right.

Manuel: No I, I understand right so I’ve I also worked in not for why not for university I work for the college but I also worked in public sector. And like you said salaries are public right it’s transparency because it’s government role. So then you’re seeing somebody who’s doing less making more. So you decided to leave and you left to go work somewhere else to make more money but still continue obviously going to school?

Carlos: Yeah

Manuel: Right? So where did you decide to go from there?

Carlos: So I didn’t have that many options that I knew. I was kind of new you know. Um actually already have like maybe like four years living here um but casinos everywhere right and for entry level jobs. I went into uh they called them regulatory testing because the casinos have different regulations with different jurisdictions. So there are a couple of labs that test machines and systems and they always taking uh people without experience because the testing is pretty simple you know you don’t have to know programming. If you know it’s better you know you can do other things but it’s good because like people that just came out of school can get those jobs. So that’s how we started with testing.

Manuel: Right. And start to gain some of that experience that everybody looks for right. Because a number of times everybody has said right. Like hey I get a degree at least here and he goes like I got his degree everybody’s gonna hire me. Not the case right it just never works out that way.

Carlos: Yeah.

Manuel: So then you’re starting to gain experience as a kind of a QA tester.

Carlos: Mm-hmm.

Manuel: Are you doing the same thing? So it sounds like once you got there you understood. First and it’s one of the things I’ve told people before right is before you go through and before you can automate or improve you have to learn the process.

Carlos: Mm-hmm.

Manuel: Right, so how long do you think it took you to kind of understand the process of what you were doing? And then how did you learn to eventually go through and start to improve it?

Carlos: It took some time because there because it’s a regulator laboratory right. Like it’s to approve systems and and machines to go into the casinos so they they do it for all the different manufacturers right. So so everyone has their own system and then you have to understand how this system works to let’s say. I don’t know if it’s not a not to consolidate but when you make sure that these numbers match these numbers when it comes to accounting. I forgot the word.

Manuel: Like the reconciliation?

Carlos: Reconciliation of you know the data you know you test you gamble you do this you hit a jackpot or whatever or you cash out the stuff like this kind of. I think they were calling it or they call it interoperability testing making sure that this machine works with all the systems or that this system works with all the machine. So it was taking time but everything every like they had um let’s say experts already working on this system that was training us like the new guys you know like this guy is the one that knows more about this x system. So he’s the one that’s gonna train you and then they also had a division of uh if I work with this supervisor we take care of the kiosks and this other system. But these guys take care of these other two systems kind of so it wasn’t that hard but they want you to know just in case you know just in case somebody doesn’t come there they seek so you can cover for them kind of thing.

Manuel: So it’s more just of a more of a time just took time because you’re it takes a while to kind of learn the process?

Carlos: There wasn’t a lot of innovation it was like we have these regulations you have to make sure that this like check mark it passes it does this it does this it does this and then you have to know how to move the things in the system. Is like okay run this report and it’s okay it wasn’t something very challenging but it took time. And um if you don’t know about the machines right you have to open a lot of words that you never heard like a drop. What is a drop? You know taking the cash out of the box and stuff like this. So this what but I only lasted there maybe six months or something like that because I was already looking for. And then I went to one of those manufacturers one of the big ones worked for them for like um I think two years. And then they were laying off people all the time so I was chosen for one of these layoffs and then and then I was laid off and then I was. I’ve been always very confident and I think that’s something you know the purpose of this um what you’re doing is to to so other people can get some examples or you know that is going to be useful for them in their career search. You got to be confident you know if you are not then it’s harder to grow. I was like hey I don’t know for how long I’m going to be um without a vacation bit of weeks of vacation or whatever so when they lay me off I went on vacation to El Salvador. Spend there like almost a month and then I came to look for jobs because I was always looking for jobs I know how much time consuming it is. So I was like no I need to you know I don’t have a lot of money because I wasn’t making a lot of money and I’m not making a lot of money but much better than before right. Uh I was like I’m gonna take I’m gonna take a break because if you just keep looking and keep looking just like spend you can it’s like another job just to be looking for jobs.

Manuel: Right and at the same time you also don’t want to burn out right you just understanding and working and not even just the the job search right but you know if you’re constantly trying to even as much as you enjoy it right. At some point you need to take a break and it sounds like I mean I remember going to school and that was kind of stressful and I would part-time jobs here and there but nothing where I was supporting myself. But I mean if you’re going to school you’re working you’re doing all this like I.

Carlos: And I had a baby too.

Manuel: Oh around that time, okay. [Laughter]

Carlos: Yeah so it was like we went let me think. Oh at this time I already had two it was like a newborn he didn’t he didn’t walk yet. When I you know I spoke with their mom and it’s like let’s just go to El Salvador you know take a couple weeks over there and then when I come back I’m gonna get back to the job search. So it was good.

Manuel: And did you start? So you waited until you got back to start job searching?

Carlos: To continue.

Manuel: Oh.

Carlos: Because you know it depends on what companies. Nowadays is much faster you know they’ll check you and they give you oh no thank you or let’s go to the next step. Back in the days and especially for the casino industry here in Las Vegas it’s like you apply for a job in January and they answer to you in September. So it was like you know I’m not going to be waiting to see. So I already had applied for many things but then it’s like I you know now that I don’t have a job. And I don’t know you always worry about when you start this like okay you have no vacation until after three months you can maybe take I don’t know it’s just to be like that I don’t know if now is like that. But you know you only get two weeks until you have two years or something like that. So I wanted to to use the time that I didn’t have to work to take some time off.

Manuel: And then so that the confidence that you build is that something that you’ve always had as a kid or is it just something that you developed as you started to kind of gain experience? Kind of everybody’s different right. So like I can think back where for me my family kind of and I would say both my mom and my dad kind of helped build that confidence. Like I remember my mom had a you know this is the earliest memory she had a did a blender that stopped working. She’s like oh it doesn’t work anymore. I was like can I can I have it I was like I’m gonna fix it right in my mind I was like I’m gonna fix it all I did was tear it apart but I like to me. It was like I wasn’t able to put it back together and it didn’t fix it but taking it apart kind of helped yeah it build a confidence that oh okay once you see what’s inside like oh this isn’t so complicated it’s not so hard right? Like as a eight-year-old omewhere like.

Carlos: It’s very similar I went through something very very similar my grandma used to listen to music every afternoon and it was kind of sad because it’s like mariachi stuff and like very like. I want to die because of your beauty and you didn’t love me stuff like this right. So I remember those afternoons with you know like all these sad music playing and then her. I don’t know “radio casettera” I don’t know how to say.

Manuel: Her radio player?

Carlos: Uh-huh with the cassettes right it just broke and I was like I’ll fix it and I didn’t know how but the same you know I open it. And I believe I was able to fix it because it was just something loose it wasn’t something that I learned everything but it was like oh it looks like this thing got loose and then it started working. So it’s like I think when it comes to work related confidence it was because when I started to work in IT I was able to do things without a lot of uh.

Manuel: Hand holding a lot of teaching so you’re figuring it out on your own.

Carlos: Yeah and then in this project that I told you about you know I was pretty confident because I knew I could get it done. It’s like yeah and now I know that you can always search you know whenever you get stuck in some problem you can ask and if you don’t have anybody that can help you in the office right. You can search online and you can always find it’s not impossible you know. Only maybe some people that is doing some crazy research that is completely new it’s probably harder for them. You know but I don’t know the confidence just came out of I guess also not speaking English and then speaking English. And having a better job than you know like what I was doing cleaning tables before. It was.

Manuel: So just slowly over time right just picking up different skills and say oh I can learn this I can learn that so eventually you start to get to the point where you’re like I can learn anything.

Carlos: Yeah.

Manuel: Like I’ll figure it out I may not know it when I start.

Carlos: Yeah.

Manuel: But eventually you know that you feel that you can you can get it done.

Carlos: Yeah.

Manuel: Okay, so then how long after you came back did it take you to eventually then find a job and and where did you end up what was the role?

Carlos: I think I was out for like four months and then when I was already back and I don’t have a job then start panicking right it’s like I have to find something you know. I have two kids and you know a family right. Yeah I think it was like four months and I went back into IT and I didn’t want right because you feel like you know I’m already as working as a QA engineer and now I’m going back as a IT support guy. It was it was feeling like I don’t know how to say like a downgrade. But being there was fun too you know like I could I could innovate let’s say and I’m not you know when it comes I feel like I can learn everything but when it comes to programming. I’m not really good at it like it kind of I feel bored when I’m reading. I’m not into oh I want to I want to be a C programmer or a Java programmer. I I prefer the the programming that I do for automation is much simpler but I’m solving problems still. Um but I never I never really like at the beginning I I thought I’m gonna be a developer someday. Now it’s like I don’t want to be a developer I I like what I do and I when it comes to QA you you know more about the entire ecosystem let’s say. Than the developers because they’re focused on a couple things you know so they’re like oh I don’t even know how to do that. And they they say it because they are not focused on that right but I know how how it works the entire system right so it’s like maybe I didn’t code it but I know what is it for and how the customers use it. So to me it’s more interesting when it comes to even project management I never done it but I like what they do you know when you when you manage things versus just sitting and coding to me it’s not not really exciting.

Manuel: Because you’re getting to understand a lot more of everything instead of you hey like just your one part you see everything you’re understanding what the customer is doing, what the programmer is doing, you’re able to kind of put it all together.

Carlos: Even the business side you know you you understand a little more and sometimes not all of them right but sometimes um developers are just like whatever I just did it you know. They told me to do it and I just did it they don’t care if it’s the best they could do is like this is what they wanted this is what I did.

Manuel: And then how long were you there in that IT role?

Carlos: It was another short I think it was like four months because I was already applying that’s like man if you see my I have a folder on gmail right. There’s like thousands of emails for job search. I was always searching always searching and because my I didn’t have experience right. So nobody even got back to me like sometimes like oh thank you for applying but we don’t feel like you are fit and I was used to it and I didn’t feel sad I felt sad when when I was called to an interview and I’m like I’m gonna get it and then it’s like you know somebody had more experience. And so kind of like that’s what made me move fast between a role and another one is that I had in the background applications going for a long time.

Manuel: Yeah so you weren’t like oh I’m in this role I’m gonna leave it alone there is. I mean if you’re applying everywhere right and especially if it’s not the type of role that you want now. You weren’t like well I’ll stop searching I’ll just let it happen you’re like nope I’m gonna keep going.

Carlos: Yeah.

Manuel: And eventually the right job will.

Carlos: Yeah. Will find you. And it was until after this another you know the back to IT I went into another casino gaming manufacturer that I kind of relaxed because it was a pretty relaxed job I didn’t have to worry that much. we just did the job and it was okay and I wasn’t looking and I was already making a little more. So I kind of felt comfortable but then LinkedIn you know the people start hey we’re looking for somebody with experience and stuff like this and then that’s how when I moved to my new role and it was very short but it was a kind of like a smaller company versus those big ones. And the big one felt that I’m not learning anything anymore so they said you’re gonna make more money which was good right but at the same time this is a small company that is trying to take on the big guys. And that’s why I went to that one most like I just was looking for a challenge and not just relax and be there in all the places that I’ve been you always have somebody that has been there for like 20 years working I didn’t want to be that guy. You know that just relax and does the same thing and doesn’t learn anything new just does until you retire. I wanted to learn more stuff and that’s why I moved to this other one it was a bad experience I didn’t like the the founder he was he wasn’t a somebody pleasant to work with. And I left I think it was three months or two months something like this I was like you know I didn’t leave early just because I was applying for a refinance of a condo I had and you know I had to have a job to do the refinance. I was like and the moment that happened and I found another job it was like I was gone I it went even some something that I don’t recommend people doing this thing. You always want to leave a job in good terms this one I was like I’m leaving today I didn’t give them the two weeks it’s just I I didn’t feel like being there anymore

Manuel: And yeah it’s not recommended but then there’s sometimes where it just it’s it’s tough right? Especially if you if you’re in a bad situation or the culture is toxic or you’re just bad management whatever it could be any number of reasons. And to your point right like I don’t recommend doing it over and over and over but there’s times where you kind of have to prioritize yourself and understand and say okay well.

Carlos: And make them understand too is like you cannot be like this with people you know maybe not with me but they were rude to other people it’s like I don’t I don’t come on. They’re working for you you have to take care of them not not yell at them stuff like this.

Manuel: You know and you went over there for a challenge so even during that three months. So even though the the manager and all that was bad did were you able to learn anything or was?

Carlos: They were actually pretty happy with me because they had these automation software that they pay a license expensive license for and they had it sitting there for a long time they didn’t have anybody to work on it. So I went specifically for that and I learned it you know like pretty quick and I already had some automation going for them and like my first month. And they were like man you’re doing pretty good other people you know they were like Carlos you’re doing great you know we want these type of people in this place and I was happy I liked it. But it wasn’t bad at the beginning it was when my manager left because of this uh stressing situation that he was like you’re not a manager but now you’re gonna get her job done because she’s gone and then I started to deal with this guy and he was and I was like… But also you know you need the money right so at some point the guy is like well if you’re not happy with this we can talk about something else and I had to bite my tongue and be like um not yet ****** you know wait.

Manuel: Yeah and then so then once you signed your paperwork you got ready. Did you have another job or did you just quit and be like I’m gonna I’ll find something?

Carlos: Even if I was I think I was ready to leave no matter what but having two kids and everything is like. I think I was lucky to get at the same time where I went I closed on the refinance like it was at the same time that I got this offer from and it was a startup and that’s when I started more into learning new things. Because I didn’t know anything about web services or or real automation you know like only this basic automation but not like coding to automate something on web apps stuff like this. It was this startup based on Redwood City that had offices in Las Vegas and uh and I had they had I believe two backend developers here and all the front end guys were in Redwood City. So it was cool you know working for a startup that is doing something completely new um they’re trying to get customers right and it’s flashy and there’s a lot of young people. I was already older I went for training to Redwood City like two different weeks but it was like one week there one week here in Vegas to know what they do here and then one week back over there to learn more about like the engineering part of you know the QA part that I was going to be testing. It was pretty cool you know to work for startups like it’s fast you know everybody’s on Slack you ask something and everybody’s answering it’s like not like bigger companies and old school companies that you have to send emails and the email is uh reply maybe I don’t know it’s like these big threads. It was cool you know I didn’t know about Slack I didn’t know about all of these new technologies or you know frameworks that they used. It was it was exciting.

Manuel: The way that you got that job. So I know prior you said LinkedIn, you know people recruiter had reached out to you for this role that where you’re at now for the startup. Was it something that you applied on LinkedIn the recruiter reached out to you just?

Carlos: I found it on LinkedIn and it was cool because it was based on Las Vegas right. So I applied but this is another thing that is hopefully useful for some people don’t give up you know. Because I had an interview I think I don’t remember if it was face-to-face online with Zoom or something like that or if it was just over the phone. The manager of QA or the lead QA lead they use um he didn’t think I could do it because I didn’t have any experience. It’s like you know Carlos sounds like a good guy but we better find somebody that already has experience with automation. So they say sorry but no and the lady that was the oh I think she reached out to me now thinking about it she reached out to me. And that’s why I had the interview. And then I emailed her and I was like hey I really like what you guys are doing I know that I don’t have experience but I can learn you know. Look at my resume I don’t know I had a conversation with her I don’t know if it was through email or over the phone and I was lucky that she was the girlfriend of the founder. So she has some power and she’s like I like what you say on this email or whatever so I’m gonna give you another chance and you’re gonna go have an interview with the boss of the QA guy. So and he was here in town he was in person and I went and they liked me because looking at me listening to me is different than just like looking at the resume. So I was able to get the job because these are the guys like what I had to say in the interview and the other two guys the developers also I guess they like that I maybe I didn’t have experience but I could show that I had some potential. In my opinion that I think that’s what they thought.

Manuel: And that’s interesting because that’s not something that’s that’s common right so I can’t think of a time that I’ve ever. So actually let me let me go back and make sure I’m understanding so when you went through and did they tell you that you weren’t going to get the job or was it just on your?

Carlos: No they told me “no”. So they me no thank you you know for your time I don’t know if it was the guy or she somebody told me like we’re looking for somebody with experience on automation and you don’t have it but you know I’ll keep your contact. That’s always say that you know someday we’ll call you back never happens but.

Manuel: So then and it was really just that you found that job so interesting that that’s what made you take that initiative to go through and say hey you know what I may not have the experience but here’s why I think that I would be good for it.

Carlos: Yeah.

Manuel: Really?

Carlos: Yeah.

Manuel: I’ve only have heard of probably one other person where they’ve had that type of situation where they were like hey no here’s why and here’s why you should reconsider me and probably wouldn’t do it for every job but I mean if there’s something that you really want or you feel like there’s a fit and maybe there’s just something that that’s missing. I mean that’s that’s a good piece of advice to go through and say hey you know what.

Carlos: If it’s really worth it for you you know give it a try and I don’t regret it you know it’s like I learned so many things that I didn’t even know they existed you know.

Manuel: Yeah and and that’s something that like you said you can’t always show potential you can’t show like hey I’m a hard worker. I’m this based on a resume or an application so you know it sounds like you were able to express that information as well to say hey I can do this not only can I do it but I’m gonna probably do it better than somebody that has more experience.

Carlos: Now did you say that I believe I mentioned something like that is like something like I don’t just do what people tell me to do in my job I always try to do you know if I have an idea maybe we can do this better. So I’m always trying to improve things and I think that’s what she liked and you know she told the guy hey give this this guy another chance. I went and I had a longer beard and the guy also had a long beard so it was like this also helped I believe. Because everybody was bothering him that he was looking like crap right and I was almost there you know like almost there so he’s like these things help you know. Like you know this guy also has a ****** beard you know what I mean? [Laughter]

Manuel: No and it does because sometimes it just takes that one you’re able to show your personality right hey. And then two just you find a common ground with somebody and say hey you know hey we both have a beard. And you know I’ve done that before with other people you comment like oh man I like your beard and there’s people like I grow a beard but I’ve seen people that have like really big beard like that’s awesome like I like the way you keep it and you know things like that and you just you start to establish a relationship, right? Sometimes it leads to something sometimes it doesn’t but at least they they probably. When he left he probably remembered you right like oh I like him I like his personality oh man he also has a beard like me so you start to establish a connection or a.

Carlos: This is just a guess you know he never told me but it’s just a guess you know like we all look with similar it probably helped

Manuel: And for that role then once you got into it did? Were you able to do a lot of kind of what you I don’t want to say promise but what you explained to them like hey I’m gonna do this I’m gonna do better and were you able to do that and did they see that?

Carlos: It was it was hard because they had it was like a I would say big not like for a big corporation but for a startup they had I think four or five QA Engineers at the same time when I joined. So you know for me to be the one that was automating it wasn’t going to happen and it didn’t happen because they had like two or three guys that they were very experienced doing all the automation. So I was doing a lot of the manual testing man it’s like and they had a you know a very complicated UI with maps and things. So it was like I even have like pain for so much you know testing manual it’s like I bought like maybe three or four different mouses because like this pain doesn’t go away you know. So it took me some time for me to start doing automation with them because of the seniority of these guys that knew a lot more but they were pretty cool. It was younger people willing to share their knowledge you know in some places you don’t find that you know. Somebody they just want to keep it for themselves but these guys one guy came for like three days from Redwood City to to Vegas you know to just to train me on automation. And you know the company was cool it was it was fun they. The holiday party was like in a club a bunch of alcohol it was it was cool. I remember if nobody was maybe two guys when when I was in Redwood City we went for lunch everybody together right and I didn’t even know about Venmo at the time you know I was something new. Like okay who’s gonna I’m gonna pay and everybody sent me I thought oh that’s cool you know. So but it was interesting that nobody was from the 80s maybe me and another guy everybody was from the 90s yeah everybody was young.

Manuel: And how long were you there in that role? And it sounds like it sounds like it was a good environment right people are teaching you you’re learning a lot I mean it took a while right it wasn’t instantaneous. But it sounds like you stuck around at least long enough to where you I’m gonna say you probably established another good relationship or trust with those other people for them to say hey you know what I like Carlos and he’s willing to learn and um is that something? Did you ask them hey can you teach me or did it come about or just how did that relationship?

Carlos: I think so it was you know we worked together right but remotely like I was the only QA in Vegas and they were in over in California right. So I always was asking questions and I think they like that you know and it’s like but why is this this way and maybe maybe it sounds stupid but I still don’t get it. So I asked again I think I understand this part but I still don’t get this and this guy is still my friend we don’t we’re not close friends but once in a while you know it’s like hey how you doing. You know even he was trying to get me with his company at some point because he switched on our company. Anyways he was they were very friendly very good people I really like working with them and I believe I asked I was pushing for like hey I also want to do automation you know like I just don’t want to I don’t want to do just this manual test. Anybody can do the manual test you know you just tell them we need to make sure that this happens and you just click and do this and whatever so I also was finding things. How can I say the company was gathering events worth of news kind of thing and they were using social media to grab those so I had a couple of ideas that helped them get more events based on you know it’s like oh you guys are using this service right that gives you this related to traffic for example. And we know that there is an accident be a big accident that there’s a lot of traffic so why don’t we start grabbing social posts from this area at this time. And they’re like oh yeah you know and it was like they were they were into the numbers because it’s a startup they need to show the numbers to the investors or to people that wants to get their services like. They were happy with me because I was not just doing you know I’m just gonna do this manual test and keep doing and keep doing and be okay with that I was also thinking you know and sharing my thoughts about how can we improve things.

Manuel: And how long were you there and?

Carlos: I think it was a little more than two years okay let me think yeah I think two years. But they were moving to another state and they were gonna close the office here they were moving to Utah and I didn’t want to go to Utah for some reason at the time. So that’s when I started to look for another job and then I found this other job that with a big bank based in Virginia. They are a huge corporation that can pay for relocation. So after the interview they flew me they flew me there. I didn’t think I was gonna get selected because of my programming you know I mentioned that before. I’m not that into I like what you can do but I’m not into like I’m gonna learn these and structures and data structures and all this is not my thing. So the last part of the interview was like at the entire day they call it I don’t know like they have a name for this power day or something like this where you go and be nervous all day. [Laughter] And you go with one person and then another one and then another and the last one was the programming and I was already it felt like you can feel when you have an interview you can feel that they are liking you right or they’re like sure you know. So I felt like everything went well but I knew when it comes when it when the programming test or whatever comes I’m not gonna do good and somehow and I explained to them you know hey I understand the logic I know what needs to get done I’m just not good at the syntax is writing it down because I never done coding you know. Only some automation but not really like oh we need this and that and just build it right never done it so it’s not my fault it’s just I have the logic to understand oh we need some loop in here but typing it in you know if it’s different language and I never had experience you can’t. It’s like it’s almost impossible right so they call it like pseudocode when you’re like and I think I did okay with that and maybe they just the other guys like me and they had some certain certain system of points. I give him good points good points and this one didn’t get that many points but at the end got enough points to give him a chance kind of thing.

Manuel: And then so they pay for with the occasion so you’re going to go you were okay going to Virginia but I’m assuming that the one when they moved to Utah you were gonna have to move on your own yeah.

Carlos: Yeah or go to Redwood City and Redwood City was super expensive you know it’s like I cannot afford I have not just my kids my ex-wife and her mom and then my mom it was a big family. It’s like I can’t possibly afford you know not even a house over there but an apartment with three bedrooms it was too expensive.

Manuel: And then interview went well for a lot of times for these bigger companies so how does that work were they upfront about salary did you have to negotiate? So what’s what’s what’s your experience or you know is there anything that you can share from from that process right? You know understanding that sounds like you take initiative to go through and explain to somebody and say hey here’s here’s why I’m good for this job when it came to salary negotiations and I know that that’s something early on in my career I struggled. Like I didn’t know sometimes they’ll sometimes they would post the range and one of the things that I learned is they would ask you what do you make? Or what are you looking to make? And I didn’t know that early on like if they ask you well what are you currently making. Oh I make this you know I let’s say I’m oh I’m making 70,000 but I see that this job is making 100,000 and as soon as they know oh well you’re only making 70 if we give them 80 or 85 if we give them less than what they’re looking to to get it’s still a raise for them.

Carlos: Yeah.

Manuel: Right so that was something that I learned that hey if someone asked you what are you currently making you don’t have to answer. You can just say well what’s the range for that rule is that something that you had learned being able to go through and and not in a bad way right but yeah I’ve had other people that have done the same thing where they’ve had multiple jobs and they learned that along the way. So by the time you’re getting to this big you know national bank did you have that skill.

Carlos: So I feel like my case is very particular because I was like how do you say like hustling. I want to get there but I don’t have what to show for for that like you know you go for casino gaming nobody cares only people in casino gaming cares about your experience casino gaming. And I’m going to a bank you know that is looking for an automation engineer and my only automation experience was with this startup that only I was working with them for only two years so it’s like does he have a lot of experience not really right. So I like I remember reading about resumes you know you have to tailor your resume for the job that you’re applying. I didn’t have the luxury of you know I’m just applying like crazy and and I also didn’t have the experience to move to other industries easily. I I’m sure I could have moved from one company in gaming to another one much easier than going to this one. So um I I couldn’t bargain like I couldn’t ask for more.

Manuel: You couldn’t negotiate.

Carlos: Yeah and also normally the salaries um I am I am I’m not you know I don’t have proofs but I am sure that the developers in the startup and me were making a lot less money than the people in California you know. So it wasn’t like a big salary for me to oh I make this much so I want more so for them it’s like oh he makes this little so it’s good for us because we don’t have to pay him that much but it was a good raise. But you know the move the you know having family all these things are also I think I was reading something like I think I think one of your podcast something like the cost of moving. I think somebody mentioned.

Manuel: Right.

Carlos: It you know it’s not just oh we just move to another side of the country and just for more money it’s you have to think about it.

Manuel: Yeah there was it was uh it was Matthew so the same thing he looked you know when he was getting ready to move he looked at and said okay here’s what I make here here’s the cost of living in Las Vegas. I think it was like North Carolina so he went and looked and found out okay where’s it gonna cost for me to be in North Carolina okay maybe cost of living is more expensive there. So you can’t just go through and anymore I had this similar one where there was a job in Silicon Valley right up in northern California. Where when they gave me the salary amount I looked at it you know like you hear a number and you know it was something like you know it was a pretty significant right. I want to say over like 200,000 or something oh wow but you start looking and you start doing the math and you’re like okay wait a minute. Here’s what it costs to not even buy a house here’s what it costs to rent a house oh Nevada doesn’t have state tax California does have a state tax and it’s high right? So then now okay now I’m paying more taxes you’re paying more you start looking at I did the math and I was like it’s almost. I can’t I can’t remember if it was a lateral move even though you hear a bigger number when you start doing the cost of living it was either going to be the same amount or slightly less. And I had I mean it was it was a struggle because it was a big company it was somebody that I was like man I really want to work there. Maybe it’s okay to kind of take that step back knowing that like you I can move up I can move forward it will look good on my resume. I’ll probably learn a lot of skills because I had a friend that worked there so he helped me out a lot. But similar to you I was like I had I had a family so it’s not just me yeah and ultimately what made me not take it is when they offered me the cost of the relocation cost. It was I don’t remember the number but let’s say it was two thousand dollars and I was like and that’s 2000 before taxes right so then you’re like well taxes like man that’s not enough to move a family of four from Las Vegas to California. I mean that barely pays for a rental truck and the gas just to get there so I was like Well yeah.

Carlos: Not worth it, yeah.

Manuel: It wasn’t worth it. You know did I make the right choice and I don’t know I mean I think.

Carlos: I feel like those chances you know when you have a family it’s different you know you cannot just go for it if you’re single you go for it it doesn’t matter if you’re gonna go live with roommates or whatever if you’re living in your own house in Vegas but you’re gonna go to California Silicon Valley it’s like all the bus and all these new things. I think it’s really worth it but it’s it’s it’s not as easy when you already have kids.

Manuel: Yeah so then for that relocation out to Virginia like how did that how did that work out.

Carlos: Like I was I was so proud of myself you know I was like wow they’re paying me to move I’m like amazing you know I was happy.

Manuel: Yeah.

Carlos: So it happened we went and we love the place.

Manuel: And how was the role for you?

Carlos: Boring not because of them but because the system that they were using it’s like I was into one of those CRMs. And it’s like testing that like somebody already tested and we’re just testing our custom builds and you know there’s always something to learn when you start but then later it’s like you know. And it’s also a bigger company that has all these ceremonies and meetings and you’re like half of the day in meetings and the other half you’re getting the job done so going from a startup to this it’s a big big switch. Even I remember having problems when it comes to they’re like very specific about you gotta be good to people you gotta be nice to people and I was I was too upfront. It’s like hey what are we doing yeah

Manuel: Too honest.

Carlos: What are we doing here it’s like for what you know it’s like oh Carlos you don’t supposed to talk like this two people you know and like in separate meetings. You know and like we need you to calm down you know like I just want to get stuff done you know. But it’s a different world right and the star of people that are like saying about wars to each other is like what the f*** dude and stuff like this right and in the in the bank this everything is like you know. But I learned even though I didn’t like it at the beginning uh it was it was good to learn about being more polite let’s say more always something like always assume good intent. It was something and it’s good you know somehow helps you I don’t know like mature and like I like it because in there in their way they’re preparing you to grow too and to be a manager or something like this. You know you have you have to you don’t have it’s not a startup we we we got the money you know we want to do things slow and well done. The startup is like we just need.

Manuel: And and also in those type of roles and and it’s they’re teaching you. It’s come up a bunch of times it’s soft skills right being able to even if something’s like hey why do we why are we doing this? It’s just you can say the same thing you just approach it differently you use different wording like hey I don’t understand what you know like I don’t understand why we’re doing this there there’s got to be a better way that we can do it you know um you know can we explore those types of options. As opposed to why are we doing this nonsense yeah right so it’s it’s the way that it’s the words that you use it’s the way that you express it you’re getting the same message but it sounds like you learned I have to. My approach has to change yeah how I’m doing this.

Carlos: And it was good you know it feels stupid when it hits you you know like they even I remember they put me on a hey you’re gonna improve this otherwise you’re gonna be gone. I’m like what like I’m doing so many things and improving things is like never experienced that that they’re like yeah it’s good that you’re doing all of that but we don’t want these other things you know it’s like oh. And at the end it’s like even stuff like they say like if you have an idea you cannot just go and like this works I’m sure let’s do it it’s like you have to sell it to the team. You go to the project manager you go to the other QA you go to somebody else and it’s like and you sell it it feels like it’s stupid but it’s actually not. You know it’s something that works you know with friends let’s say you know if you’re in high school and you want to do something but people are not going you hey what about this and you know what about this it’s something very basic but we don’t think about it. Especially I think when you’re coming from a different background or a different country you know it’s like you’re more you just say whatever you think you’re not worried about what are they gonna think.

Manuel: Yeah it’s it’s very it’s very cultural right so I know the same thing. So my family comes from Mexico and we go down there and there’s a lot of times where depending on where you’re at that it’s it’s a very upfront you just you just say it right. There’s usually not that that thought process of like hey maybe I should just I shouldn’t have said it that way right it’s very much like hey you just you say what comes to your mind or how you’re feeling. Hey we shouldn’t do this and here’s why right like yeah and nobody for the most part most people usually don’t take it in a bad way, because it’s a cultural thing. Whereas here it’s you know especially in corporate I wouldn’t even say the US but like in the US corporate culture it’s very much hey you have to really be careful how you word things how you’re saying stuff. You can’t just say the first thing that comes to your mind right like there has to be a filter in the way that you’re coming across and approaching things.

Carlos: And you know at the time so during this time I got divorced you know I had personal issues and all of this but I also well you know I decided to date and this is personal but it’s some tip you know that can help can be helpful to to somebody. I was pissed off that they are treating me this way because I’m giving them results and they don’t want just those results they want me to switch who I am. This is what how I was thinking like what this is who I am like why I have to be different. And then I was dating this American girl right talking about it and she’s like this is what you should do. Just tell them this hey listen um it’s not it’s it’s my cultural background that makes me be this way you know. And they are all about inclusive and all of this is like they they can’t just be like no no no we still want to end things switch when I started to use those words you know. Like my background is from another place and I’m more direct and stuff like this so even the people that were like Carlos. Even they were like and it’s like mmm and kind of like they also worry about you being like hey you guys are racist or kind of thing you know they worry about me complaining that they don’t accept me the way I am. So it level it wasn’t just like did you have to change it was more like now we get you kind of thing. [Laughter]

Manuel: Now we get you but it sounds like at the same time you also kind of learn okay maybe I’ll kind of meet you in the yeah right it’s not just like hey no no no no.

Carlos: Yeah.

Manuel: And and that is I’m glad you brought that up because that is important to say hey you know like I I don’t necessarily want to change who I am but I understand that there’s certain.

Carlos: Yeah.

Manuel: There’s there’s certain rules or there’s certain you know norms but hey give me give me a chance here’s here’s what I’m used to. Here’s how I’ve been for 20 something years it’s not that easy to just say oh okay well I’m gonna do 100% where you are and oh I’m sorry then you know it takes time.

Carlos: Like yeah yeah so actually like now you know if I talk to somebody that is younger or whatever like now I use those things that I learned back then. It’s not that many years ago but it’s it’s you’ll you’ll you’ll learn from everything you know.

Manuel: You learn from experience taking time. So then how long were you there um in that role and it sounds like there’s a big the other thing is that it’s a drastic change right going from a startup to a big established company that has processes and procedures. So it was boring. How long were you there and did you pick any skills up and then kind of what made you?

Carlos: So I think I felt like I was like I’m going improving improving getting you know better money better positions my experience but then this personal thing you know divorce fighting for the kids and all of this is kind of like I was like this and like. And then things change in my mind you know it’s like now it’s not about getting to the top now it’s like I need to be near my boys you know what I mean so it’s like my priorities change and I wasn’t like oh I need to move and I really like they gave me. So it was like the reason I’m here is because I wanted to be near my boys you know back in Las Vegas and kind of like what’s more important right like continue to go move from this good company to a better company. Now let’s say I can be single you know I don’t have to be a dad. I can go for the startups I can go learn I can go and afford to live in a different place. I could have done that but I didn’t want to because generally you only have kids for a certain amount of years right. It’s like I I’d rather be a dada and that’s like you know I was like boom and then not like this but not going to a company that is bigger but to a smaller company that. Now I work I love what I work and love what I do but how many people is gonna know about a casino gaming company I don’t think that many. So the decision of switching from from the big corporate everybody knows to this one that nobody knows yet maybe someday. It’s another decision that was based on my personal things you know it’s like I just want to be. I move back to Vegas and still working for the company in Virginia so I was like at six in the morning starting so it’s like kind of it takes a toll after some time you know. At the beginning it’s like whatever you know I finish early so I can do many other things in the afternoon but then that is like I can’t even have you know some drinks with my friends because like I have to be so up early so up so early. You know so somebody was looking on LinkedIn for four guys with the experience I had you know somebody that has automation experience QA experience but at the same time knows the casino gaming needs and I was lucky that they found my profile and they’re like offer me you know talk about it. And another good thing is like working in Virginia I had a better salary than in Las Vegas let’s say like I feel like maybe now it’s different I haven’t been looking for jobs for a while so but I always felt that they pay less here than in other parts of the country right. So I told them hey listen I like I like what you’re showing me I want to work with you guys however if the what you’re offering me is this little over there with the raises that they give annually I’ll make this in two years you know it’s like there’s not really a point. So maybe if you can offer me a little more that will make me want to switch you know and then they did that and then like let’s do it and I think I I don’t I’m sure they’re pretty happy with my performance. And I’m also happy working with them learning and you know collaborating with what we’re doing so.

Manuel: No and and it’s it’s true a lot of times we don’t we don’t think about the personal stuff right. It plays a big role as much as we think that oh no it’s just you’re moving up the corporate ladder like it’s come up a bunch of times right like you have to start you’re at different phases of your career right you have family or you don’t have a family or you’re married you’re not married kids no kids. All that plays a factor into what jobs you’re going to take it’s not always just oh well this pays more money I’ll take that or hey this is this company is a well-known name you know like hey I’m going to go work for Google versus some startup that nobody’s ever heard of. All of those things play a factor right so it’s it’s it’s important and I’m glad you brought it up. That whatever we’re going through personal you know in our own lives has an effect not even just in searching for jobs but even just in doing the job and the role that you’re at right? Like that takes a toll like if you’re if you’re having problems at home or if you’re not happy like as much as we try and keep work and you know home separate it it’s it’s not always the case.

Carlos: It’s almost impossible I’ll give you another example of what happened during this time I always wanted to you know if I’m bored I want to do something else and this company was big enough for you to hey you want to move to this other team you know. Cool you know we help you out and then you can go but because I had all these personal issues they were very supportive my team it’s like even though I didn’t feel like I was learning anymore I didn’t. I wanted to continue with this team just because of the support they gave me you know I could travel for you know court cases and stuff like these and they would never like Carlos what the hell. They were like hey we know this is more important so you know you feel like man even if I’m not gonna continue growing and I’m not gonna get to be a director in this company but it’s you know you want to give back and that’s what I felt.

Manuel: That’s good and one of the things that I want to ask is. I’ve I come from an infrastructure background right so server, storage, network a lot of that picking up those skills or understanding where I can learn that pretty easy right. If you go you’re like you want to be a Network Engineer go look up there’s tons of videos, people just Cisco all over the place. For a QA Engineer, so I know you touched on you know having some developer you know for some of these roles they do look for that developer skills automation. So what what did you do to kind of learn those skills? So I’m assuming a lot of it’s on the job, but also is there anything that you did outside? Or is there anybody that somebody that’s looking that says hey man you know I that sounds interesting to me. How would someone go about learning the skills to be a QA Engineer who doesn’t want to just click next next next what what would you recommend or what are the things that you can do? Because again I’ve I’ve heard QA Engineers, I’ve QA Testers I’ve seen them I work for company that they did a lot of software development but I don’t know how they got to where they’re at. Like I’ve heard your story, but how do you pick up those skills?

Carlos: I think it’s you know it’s very particular and it’s different and it’s not easy to get to it like you cannot like you can find some tutorials on YouTube people that does it right and they are teaching but it’s not as easy as okay I want to I want to be a Java Developer. Or I want to learn uh when I say easy not easy to find it you know like or or to follow a book there’s no book you know. Um so it’s something that I I don’t know like you cannot just decide and who will want you know now it’s like I talk to my boys right they’re a little bigger like so I’m like hey guys this is pretty easy it looks complicated just because you see the code you know the dark screen with the green letters or whatever. It looks they’re like oh no I don’t understand and I’m like no it’s pretty simple and it’s. I read a long time ago that being in QA it’s less stressing than being a developer kind of like it is one of those jobs that is like you enjoy the work-life balance more. Because I love it because I don’t have to worry about like oh you know we broke something something is not working in production it’s it’s less stress it’s like well if I didn’t test it well and I didn’t really care then we can find something in production it’s gonna be on me right. But if you have enough time and you know what you’re doing and you understand what needs to be done it’s it’s not that hard to make sure the things are have some quality you know always there’s gonna be something that you you cannot cover everything with this right. So always is gonna be some little thing but not nothing like for example in what you say like infrastructure something is down and you’re on call [Laughter] you know like you’re like four in the morning you have to do something QA you will never get you will never on call you just sleep you know and then the next day you find out it’s like oh something went down and everybody was working. As long as what happened and it’s almost never the software part but it’s more like something on the infrastructure part so it’s and I’m sure people that does QA for these infrastructure things it’s probably much more complicated you know because we need the reliability and we need all of that but when it comes to I don’t know how to call it but these UIs or or the the back end that runs some feature for a customer. It’s not we’re not testing when at least for me I’m not testing that that the server is reliable you know I’m just making sure that the software does what it’s supposed to do for the customer because they’re using it for a specific purpose. So I’m sure that there is some QA more complicated you know and they hold this build say I remember in this company they were saying that Amazon was like they do I don’t know how many thousands of deployments a day or something like this is like. That’s pretty cool right but we were not there we were we were working with this CRM that is much simpler you know and the test that we were doing and whatever we were providing to our customers it was so much simpler so it’s not that complicated but I’m sure QA can be complicated too. Not really interesting getting there you know comfortable.

Manuel: And that QA testing all it all there sounds like at least on the software side all you’re really doing is whatever the UI the application whatever the software is. Are you just trying to sounds like you’re trying to find bugs or you know things that may not work like and is it just testing? So hey I click on this button it’s not doing what I would think it’s supposed to do or?

Carlos: So this is this is another thing and I don’t I don’t mean to like QA is whatever no it’s it’s like there is a difference between being a tester and a quality assurance engineer like you’re trying to to have a product with quality. So it depends on what you do some people just focus on like you know I’m gonna do this and and it does what it’s supposed to do and it’s good and some others they’re like okay this kind of works but do we really want the customer to be clicking like 10 times to do these two things. So that’s where it comes with the quality right and you talk to the project manager or whoever depending on how your team is set up right if it’s a big company it takes longer for somebody. If it’s a smaller company I just tell my boss dude this doesn’t make any sense because look I have a video I sent in oh yeah you’re right we have to change that and then it’s like we enter a ticket for it and we just switch it so. I dislike when managers or people in the interviews are like a tester a tester test is like no like anybody can test you can train a monkey to test stuff but looking for the end product for the customer is more important than just making sure this works you know. Like making it better.

Manuel: Got it so a QA engineer is not necessarily testing to make sure something works. Excuse me. So it’s not testing to make sure that something works but is it the most efficient way or is it the best experience for a customer. So it’s not just like hey I clicked this button and it did what I needed to but it’s I clicked this button and then I had to click four more when really maybe I only needed to click two.

Carlos: Yeah we can skip these three you know so you are kind of like what the product people do you know. We want is we have this idea is gonna look cool but then you get into the details because you have to actually make sure that you get from here to there and maybe the product owner or product manager he’s thinking of the bigger picture you know you are getting into the specifics you know. This is like how somebody’s actually gonna do it in the field right and like whatever office or whatever but it’s also the business part right like product owners or product managers they’re thinking about business you know how much money we’re gonna save up there we deploy these or something like this. But we as QA we’re we’re making sure that the thing is the best possible and something’s funny because whenever I find some I use a product or something this is like why the hell is this thing like so stupid you know it’s like I don’t think they have QA you know it’s like. And some people have more some companies think QA is super important and some other ones is like oh the developer can do their own QA they just have to write code against their own test but it’s never the same you know. You can write code against your own test to make sure that the numbers come up right but the user experience you know when it comes to the back end maybe you can do that but when it comes to the front end it’s different. And I’m also lucky that there is some different tools that do you know different frameworks you can use I’ve chosen something I like and I had the luxury of setting up the automation from start. So I chose what I like and it’s easier you know I don’t have to do a lot of Java code to automate some couple clicks I just used something that I had experience with and I told my manager hey I think we should go with this where I am now because it’s just easier you know. If I’m the lead and then somebody’s gonna come I don’t have to teach them how to program I just have to teach them how to use this tool to do some automation and there is always some complex stuff because also this framework is not what everybody uses. So you don’t always find like if I’m gonna find something about Java you find so many answers you know but this one is something else I don’t know if I should mention it or it’s something newer smaller so you pretty much find the founder answering all the questions you know. And it’s pretty cool I even spoke to this guy um I had meetings with you we bought the product there they went from open source to um to to for profit and it’s like it’s cool you know I’m I’m actually giving feedback to the founder it’s it’s pretty cool.

Manuel: No that is I don’t know many I don’t know many situations where that’s the case right. Um

Carlos: Sometimes you just go and you have to use what they already have and they are very resistant to change even if it will be easier you know.

Manuel: Oh no that’s that’s awesome I um. You’ve shared a lot I’ve learned a lot so I you know even just towards the end right like QA testing I thought that it was more functionality not just also usability right. So that quality assurance it’s not just quality of does it work like it’s supposed to but is it the best uh kind of user experience. So I know we’re kind of wrapping up here um is there anything else that you think that might be important to share anything that maybe we might not any question that you think that I didn’t ask you that uh.

Carlos: No it’s been pretty cool you know like we’re just talking like friends you know it’s it’s a big very easy setup. I will say like some people are afraid of technology because they feel like they don’t understand it it’s it’s. I will say gardening is harder not technology you know what I mean like keep keeping up some plants alive and understanding what the issue is you know nature is much harder you know. So technology is something that you just if you put the time into learning it you will learn it and a lot of people is afraid of it it’s like oh I’m I wasn’t good at math. Like how many times have you been doing some calculus you know like solving some uh differential equation when you’re coding. Maybe someone that is doing something really advanced right maybe you know some AI or whatever but some AI in some places I’ve been is it was just regular expressions it wasn’t artificial intelligence it was just like something simple you know. But doing those tools it’s hard but using them is easy so even now developers I believe before it was harder uh because you have to learn everything but now they have like you just grab this. Uh I have a friend that tells me oh it’s like most of my job is not really coding it’s more like deployment issues stuff like this even though I’m a Java Developer but like now Java is so big that you can find anything you need just grab the code you know or the or this library or stuff like this you just use it and that’s it. So I just you know would like to tell whoever is afraid of getting into it it’s like anybody can do it it’s it’s not and it’s because at the same time because people are afraid of doing it. We have this luxury of kind of relaxing you know not everybody want to get into it so you have less competition even though there’s a lot of people that just want to make the money that’s why they want to do it. A lot of people is applying but at the same time when you already have the job when you already went through it and then you learn and you have some experience it’s it’s a lot more relaxing that just do it any other job you know. Like hustling to make sales or stuff like this you know when it comes to not technology but you know like if I’m a realtor you have just a certain amount of time to do this and some realtors make a lot of money but some of them they don’t you know. I feel like if you if you kind of take the right decisions at the right time you can it’s it’s not that complicated to to grow in the technology fields and anybody can do it. I had a friend just to finish that he was and this is when I just came and I was in the first IT job he was from El Salvador too so he was my friend just because he was from El Salvador we didn’t have anything than that in common right at the beginning and he’s like he was in the help desk in the hotel. And I told him hey we just teach you you know and he moved and now he’s he’s still in the technology side but he never thought he was going to be able to join the IT department and he did it and he’s still there you know and it’s like anybody can do it.

Manuel: And there’s so many different roles right people a lot of times when they think technology like oh I have to be a developer I have to program I have to do infrastructure but there’s so many different things like they’re like said QA. You know a friend of mine Oscar he talked about even he says it had he known his dream would have been to do with sports right. Like just think about anything that anything that you do if you have a passion for something if you have a passion for plants you know right like I I don’t there there are there’s a lot of work. I’m sure there’s technology around that you know like hey how do we test the soil how do we do all these things there’s technology everywhere you can find something that you can learn. You don’t have to be a network person you don’t have to be you know a server person like those are the things I think like you mentioned people think technology is hard because I have to you know I I don’t like my using my computer because there’s this program that I don’t like. Well there’s so much more outside of that and if it’s something that like I said people see the money but it’s not always that, you know like you mentioned right. You could go and make a ton of money and hate going to work hate the people that you work for it’s finding that balance of okay I’m I’m making good money but I also enjoy what I do because I mean. I I don’t know about you but I’ve been in the industry for 20 plus years different roles but it’s because I enjoy constantly learning, doing new things and I think that’s what keeps me going and passionate about it.

Carlos: Yeah yeah I think it’s something I would you know always you can think about your kids right you want your kids to be in the office learning all of these maybe being a farmer is much more fun you know but at the same time I wouldn’t tell my kids don’t try it you know because it’s something that allows you to learn so many things you know. Even behavioral things as we spoke right. So I would anybody to give it a try it’s it’s worth it.

Manuel: All right well thanks I really appreciate you taking the time to come and and share your your journey with us and just tell us more about your career and yeah thank you. And you know at some point if you move on to do other roles and you know I’d be happy to have you come back and tell us you know kind of what’s changing what you’re.

Carlos: Yeah, thank you for having. It’s this is great what you’re doing you know like it’s you’re giving information to people that can be useful for their lives so thank you too.

Manuel: I appreciate it. Have a good one.