From Ukraine to Tech Sales Consultant with Vika Nevmyvakova | Ep048

Manuel Martinez: Welcome everyone, my name is Manuel Martinez, and again, this is another episode of Career Downloads. Where each episode I basically hit the refresh button, bring on a different guest to learn more about their background and their experiences, to help you uncover any actionable advice that you can use as you’re managing your own career. So I’m excited for today’s guests. So today I have with me Vika Nevmevakova, and we met at a networking event. We got to talking, I learned a little bit more about kind of what she’s currently doing, some of the things that she’s done in the past, found it very interesting and intriguing. So looking forward to learning more about, you know, some of those experiences. So with that, I’ll go ahead and introduce Vika.

Vika: Thank you for having me, I’m so excited to be here.

Manuel Martinez: I appreciate you coming on and, you know, being willing to kind of share your experiences. I know we kind of had a little touch point ahead of time. So really looking forward to learning more about it.

Vika: Me too, let’s do it.

Manuel Martinez: So if you don’t mind to start off, can you tell us what your current role is and just a summary of some of the roles and responsibilities?

Vika: Sure, so currently I’m doing consulting, mostly around sales, sales operations, for smaller startups, usually pre-funding stage startups, because that’s where they need help most and aren’t at the stage yet where they can hire a big team or set up processes or even platforms and applications, because a lot of times they’re costly. So I try to come in and help them first of all, develop a strategy, understand what their selling goal is, what they’re trying to get to that year, that month, that quarter, and then provide them with the tools, do the research based on what budget they have available and set them up with prospecting platforms, CRM systems, and something to track revenue once it starts coming in, help with just looking over their webpage to see how a customer might perceive it. A lot of times, software is built by, you know, a super technical person, usually genius, that developed something from a good idea and they’re very technical and they, not necessarily, are very good at perception in terms of how the market might see it. Obviously their product is great. They may have sold it already, maybe like to smaller customers, maybe individual licenses, but a lot of times I just wanna come in and see what a potential prospect would see when they look at the page, like pricing, features, what the value is, are they communicating the value? Because a lot of times they’ll list all the features, but not necessarily connecting the whole picture so that the prospect might look at it and be like, okay, well, that looks cool, but like what problem does it solve for me? So I usually try to come in and say, we need to articulate it for them so that it’s easy. Once they get on the website, they’re like, ah, okay, that’s gonna help me fix XYZ. And that’s how you generate sales.

Manuel Martinez: And I’m excited to kind of dig into your journey and understand how you were able to kind of develop those skills to be able to now put those into practice to help these businesses.

Vika: Yeah.

Manuel Martinez: So now if you don’t mind, tell me a little bit more about kind of where you grew up and then eventually kind of what led you into eventually getting into technology.

Vika: So I was born and raised in Ukraine, moved to the States when I was almost 20 years old, just a few months shy of that. And been plotting that move since I was 12. When you’re 12, people just look at you like, yeah, okay, right. You don’t have the knowledge about the country, you don’t have much money, how are you gonna make it happen? And I began working in high school, the last few years of high school, and then I actually started at a telemarketing role. In its unmarketing role. At a company that was founded by a Dutch businessman and they sold security systems for homes. Now in Kharkiv, which is the city I grew up in, a lot of people live in apartment buildings or condos, and there’s not much single family homes, so it’s a lot of apartments, right? And we had to set appointments for field reps to go out and sell them the systems in their home. The trick to that, or I guess the fun fact, was that back then, and it’s hard to imagine living in the States of course, Ukraine or in general was not, telemarketing in general was not popular in Ukraine just yet. I think in my city at least, and this is the second largest city in Ukraine, they, I think they might have been the first ones to do that. So imagine you’re trying to do your job and call these people, and they’re not familiar with the concept of telemarketing. So they answer their phone and there was a stranger on the phone, and you try to tell them about this security system, how great it is, and then you’re like, okay, so what is a good time for us to come out to your home and provide you with an estimate and hear about your needs to make sure that your apartment is covered? They’re like, wait, what? You’re not coming tomorrow. How do you know my address? Where’d you get my name? So even though in the States some people ask that, right? But people usually know, like there’s lists and all that stuff. But we were pretty much the first ones in the city to try to educate the public on this is the thing. We get your information from some sort of a list and we’re not the bad guys, we just wanna actually help you out. It was a legitimate company for sure. And as we try to sell that, I would get a paper list. Go down the list, name, phone number, all that, and set appointments. So that was pretty much my first, very first introduction into sales. And I never thought I was gonna end up in sales after that. It was a difficult, very difficult job. Lots of rejection, lots of screaming on the phone at me. But yeah, then I moved to the US and started going to community college at night.

Manuel Martinez: So I didn’t mean to stop you. But one of the things that kind of really stood out to me there is, like you mentioned, it’s brand new to that country, to that city, right? So this is completely different. You’re getting rejection. Now I get it, you’re trying to make money and you’re trying to, you know, like to you at that time, especially at that age, it’s probably like, it’s just a job, right? But what are some of the things that you picked up in that role? You know, being able to do this, this is the first time. So it’s probably not only just new to them, but it’s new to you. So do they give you kind of any training? Are you just learning on your own? Like each call, like, okay, this didn’t go well, this did, and kind of putting that into practice? Or like, what’s that evolution look like?

Vika: Yes, so they did do training. It was actually pretty good. And I have a lot of trainings to compare them to in my actual professional jobs here in the States and sales. And, but a lot of that, even with the training was just on the job. You evolve from every single call, like you mentioned, right? You learn from every single interaction and you adjust, you have to keep dialing. It’s kind of a nonstop thing when you’re there for your shift. And you also learn from your colleagues. I think I learned a lot from the people next to me. We were sitting in a very small room, cubicles, but you can kind of hear each other. And I was probably the newest member on the team and the youngest by far. I was probably 16, maybe 15, 16 at the time. And other people were in their 40s, 50s. So huge gap that I had to adjust to as well. It was my first office job. I babysat, did that kind of stuff, but it was the first office job. So office politics became kind of at play. And I started hitting my quota, exceeding my quota. And there was a little bit of jealousy going on, I would say, especially from folks who are more experienced, a little bit older than me. And I had to navigate that as well, how to handle it professionally, when I got awards and for example, somebody else didn’t, how to act, how to not be arrogant or too happy about it. And I think that was probably one of the hardest things that I had to learn, just containing my happiness and just emotions in general. And I wanted to tell the world, oh my God, I’m finally good at this, this is great. And yeah, so a lot of that was a learning curve.

Manuel Martinez: And in that learning experience, right? And the reason I wanna ask is that happens a lot, especially if there’s such an age gap, having to contain your excitement. I mean, you’re proud, it sounds like you were doing hard work, you’re going through, and that happens a lot more in the corporate environment to where professional, right? Like, hey, I don’t wanna be too excited and kind of tone down who you really are, right? Like there’s also a time difference. So back then that was more accepted, more the norm, whereas now it’s a little bit more acceptable, I think, to kind of be yourself and say, hey, I’m excited without being boastful, right? Like you’re not like, hey, everybody look at me, but it’s like, oh, hey, man, this is exciting. Like the hard work I put in, how did you deal with that? I mean, is it, you mentioned office politics, were there people that were telling you not to be so excited? Was it just your observation of when this happened, people were being rude to you? Like how did that process kind of happen?

Vika: Nobody really told me, I just started to pick up on some of the cues, but there was some rumors, okay, somebody gets better lists or something like that, which was not the case, we got random lists every time. And I, if I booked a meeting, usually people can hear you as you’re writing down information and get the address and all that verified. So they can hear you, but I kind of moved on to the next call right after that, just so that I don’t have to react in that moment. And then sort of at the end of the day, we would sit down and go over our results. And of course, my boss would know how many meetings I booked, other people, so we would go over the results more of a in a team setting, but I definitely taught myself to refrain from immediate reaction of happiness. Like, oh my God, he asked about the meeting, even though I wanted to, but I felt like it’s probably, it also affects the morale, right? Like if somebody is not having a good day, and I see that and they’re trying and here I am booking meeting after meeting, like it’s not, it’s just not, I’ve been in that situation myself plenty of times, and it sucks because you’re like, what am I not doing right today? And so yeah, just observed the cues early on and try to adjust to the environment. And there were days when we were all kind of like hitting it. And those were amazing days, of course. And we all had days when nobody was, nobody booked a single meeting. Everyone’s not super happy, but it is what it is. It’s the name of the game sales is just like that. So one day it’s, one day you’re winning every single thing you’re doing, and the next few days you’re like, oh man, what happened?

Manuel Martinez: Awesome. I appreciate you kind of taking the time to kind of explain some of that, those experiences. So I know that you mentioned, you know, you started going to college and kind of moving on. So I’ll let you go ahead and continue.

Vika: Yeah, so as I first moved to the States, I worked for an international company helping process student visas like J1F1 for folks who were coming to the States from all kinds of other countries, a lot from Europe, Latin America, really everywhere. And we had to get their paperwork in order so I would process their passport, visa applications, everything for them. So they could come on an exchange program or to study abroad. So I did that for a while. And then once that contract ended, I was like, what do I do now? And I needed a place to live. The company actually provided us with housing before, but now I’m on my own to figure it out. So I actually ended up working as a live in nanny for about a year and a half, watching two little girls, twins, they were two years old at the time, and did that from about 6 a.m. until 6 p.m., Monday through Friday, 12 hours with twins, when I obviously didn’t have my own kids and it was just like, wow. And you’re never off too. When you live with somebody in the house, those kids follow you. If they like you, they’ll follow you to your room. And I wanted to Skype my mom at the time and they were just running to my room, just barge in and they wanna play. What are you doing? I’m not gonna tell a two-year-old that you’re off work right now. So with that, I also started thinking, okay, what’s next for me? How do I go to school? I was not a U.S. citizen just yet. And going to a four-year school was just insurmountable in terms of finances. So I discovered this option of community colleges. So I went to a community college in Los Angeles, which is where I started my journey back in the day, and went to school at night. So we’d have classes usually Monday through Thursday, sometimes Monday through Friday after work, so usually 6.30 till 10 p.m. And you always took a full load of classes, like 12 to 16 units, and got some scholarships too. They’re small at the time, because community college is not expensive. But that’s how I did my first two years in school.

Manuel Martinez: And in that, you mentioned you discovered community college. You come in here from a completely different country. How did you discover that? Is it something where, are you establishing friends through your previous place of employment? Is it being the live in nanny? Are they, you’re establishing a relationship, obviously with the kids, with the family. Are they, are you asking them for advice? How do I go on to school? Just wondering how that came about, because it wasn’t just one day like, hi, I’m gonna go to community college.

Vika: It kind of was, because I knew I wanted to go to college. I actually finished three years of college in Ukraine before I moved. And I started researching, where can I go? What’s the cheapest option? So kind of googled everything, and that’s how I stumbled upon it. The family I was living with, they didn’t really know much about community college. They actually went to four year schools right away. Their families were well off, like they had their option right away. So no, I actually had to figure it out. And yeah, lots of research, trying to fit everything so I can do it at night, so I can still keep working, because I couldn’t just afford to stop working and go to school. And once I did that, I started looking into what’s next after that. So I went to some counselors at the community college, asking them what is next? How do students, once they finish, like maybe an associate’s degree, or just get enough transfer credits so they can transfer somewhere? And they said yes four year schools. So we have partnerships with UCLA, Cal State schools. And that’s when I started looking into that, and I was like wow, okay. But then being not a citizen, I wouldn’t qualify for a lot of financial aid. So that’s when I also started thinking, how do I go about that? Can I take loans? And was talking to a coworker, and at that time I actually worked at a construction company by then. That was my second year of community college. So I went to be a project manager for a construction company for their solar division, processing contracts, rebates for solar installations. That’s where I first learned about what people did in those situations. Some other folks went to community college there. My coworker actually said that you could join the military as a joke. And I was like, yeah right. I’m an only child, my mom’s gonna kill me if I try to do that, even think about that. She’s like, well no, it’s a real thing, just look into it. And I was like, I’m a girl, what are you? Military’s not mandatory for women in Ukraine, at least before the war it wasn’t. Now I’m not sure. But started as a joke, and then I actually started seriously thinking about it. And I wanted to make sure that whatever I end up doing in the military is also what I like doing, kind of supplement all my activities in my existing life with something that maybe I can broaden my scope into, do a job that, I didn’t wanna do a desk job, let’s put it this way, because I already had a desk job. And I started talking to military recruiters and met with some of them with the Army, Air Force, and the Navy. I kind of interviewed them so I could understand which branch is probably the best fit for me, what jobs are available. So I took the ASVAB, which was the next step, just get the aptitude, figure it out, what are you qualified for even, right? So did that and then ended up going into the medical field. It was very interesting to me, I wanted to help people. So I know people think of the military as like, okay, you’re in the front lines, you’re getting yourself into violence. And I wanted to do the opposite of that. So I ended up joining the Navy as a hospital corpsman and then entailed first aid, kind of like a paramedic equivalent. So you’re the first responder, but also got a specialty in dentistry. So I did, I was a dental assistant as well to a dentist. And it was very interesting going through bootcamp. And at that time they did not allow tablets or phones or anything. So I was without connection to the entire world for two months, including my mom, which is a little bit different than anyone coming from the States into the bootcamp because you send a letter, you can send letters. And the letters take maybe two or three, maybe five days to reach them. For us, it was three to four weeks to get to Ukraine. So essentially when they first allowed people to start sending letters, I sent it out. And then three weeks later, we got a phone call so we could call the family. And with the time difference, it was never aligning and there was no cell phones at the time. My mom was freaking out. And then one time I finally caught her at home and it was the same day she got the letter. But yeah, it was, we were pretty anxious about that because she was worried. I was like, mom, nothing to worry about, it’s bootcamp. Right, like I’m not somewhere deployed. But yeah, so with that, at the end of bootcamp, which was eight weeks, I graduated being a US citizen. Naturalization process was just done like as soon as we entered bootcamp, whoever was not a citizen, you had to apply, you had to interview with the USCIS and then you get sworn in. And we did that at Great Lakes, Illinois. So graduated in April and I think the naturalization ceremony was in the end of March and that kind of paved the way for me to transfer to a four year school, be able to take on loans, get some financial aid, merit based as well as need based. So, and then I, as I was finishing my training, which was in San Antonio at that time after bootcamp, I was waiting for decisions from the universities I applied to. So, and I got into most of the ones that I applied to and ended up going to UC Berkley, moving up to the Bay Area.

Manuel Martinez: And when you applied for these different universities, did you think that you were gonna continue down the medical school route at that point?

Vika: No, no, so that was never supposed to be something I wanted to do full time. It’s more of a, I’d like to have a skillset, but also contribute to something different than what I’m already doing. Yeah.

Manuel Martinez: So, it’s gonna be a two part question here. The first part is, what did you decide that you were going to enroll in and how did you come about that decision?

Vika: Okay, so at the time, the goal was to go to law school. So, that was a dream I had for quite a few years and I was fascinated with mostly international law, human rights, those kind of things. And at Berkeley, I majored in legal studies where we did a lot of legal research, case studies and just understanding how the law worked. It’s not a degree that allows you to practice law because you have to have a JD for that. But, there was a foundation that would help me understand do I really want to continue down that path? And if I do, is that still the same specialty I would like to do once I finish law school? And as part of that process, I interned at law firms. One of them was criminal law and family law. It was kind of like a split firm where one attorney did one thing and the other one did the other. Also volunteered for an attorney that did entertainment law, wills and trusts, so explored that part. And then eventually applied into an AmeriCorps program, they have a justice core under their umbrella, which is students in specific geographical areas are able to go into a courthouse and volunteer at a self-help center. Helping unrepresented litigants to explore their options, no advice given, just more like, let me tell you everything you could look into and give you the paperwork, help you fill it out. Anything but advice and then they could speak to an attorney for a piece of advice. So I did that for a period of a year. So one day per week, one full day per week, I would dedicate to that, not schedule any classes for those days and just go out to the San Francisco Superior Court and do that all day long. So I helped people with filing for divorce, custody, name changes, restraining orders, small claims, really you name it, anything that’s not a full blown like civil lawsuit or criminal defense, stuff like that. But it was interesting.

Manuel Martinez: I was gonna say, that had to be an interesting experience to kind of go through and get exposure to all these different areas, right? Like they’re things that probably most of us don’t deal with or think about, but now you’re getting an insight into how a lot of things work, how it operates, especially through the legal law. Do you think that that information, because you talked about what you’re doing now, did that help you as you’re moving on, not only throughout your career, but is that something that you felt and that kind of set you apart and gave you probably an edge that maybe most people don’t have?

VIka: Like for a future career?

Manuel Martinez: Yeah, for future careers, just as you’re going through, now you’re understanding how contracts work, and then it could be towards negotiating for roles or just understanding the parts of a business, because now you’re talking about how you’re consulting for businesses, and now I’m kind of starting to connect dots where I see, oh, okay, well, if you understand legal structure, how this works, I could see that how it would benefit you in a consulting role for a business, like outside of the technical role, but still understanding like, hey, now you have to think about this, hey, maybe you’re not aware about this or that ramification.

Vika: Yes, absolutely, is a short answer. Long answer, I think, what I took away from that specific program, and even the internships before that I’ve had, was that a lot of times, despite you doing your best as an attorney, doing everything correctly, filing paperwork on time and advising a client, the outcome is still outside of your hands. And I think to me, that was a little bit frustrating, because I’ve witnessed multiple court hearings as part of the experience, some for clients that I helped. I asked the supervising attorney if I could attend those just to see how that ends up going for them, and they allowed me to go a few times just to see, and I think what I found was that who you knew, how well acquainted with a judge you are, made a lot of a difference. And to me, it was a little bit frustrating. I feel like I felt like that at the time, and I still feel that way, that law should be blind, it should be all about the facts, but a lot of times I noticed it was about the relationships. It was about which attorney was friendlier with a judge or prosecutor, or if the attorney was liked there, maybe they were arrogant, but they did their job, right? But they didn’t like his personality or her personality because of the other clients suffered. So to me, it was really heartbreaking. And that was my hunch at first, and I talked to my supervising attorneys. I was like, is this what’s happening, or am I completely off base here? And they said, no, absolutely, that’s what it is. And yeah, so to me, that’s when I started rethinking my life choices. Do I wanna be in this position where I can really never tell a client that we got this, because I can’t say that. And it’s somebody’s life that you’re working with. And even a small mistake on your part could cost them either money, jail time, their children, custody, all these things. And I just realized I don’t think that world is for me. And that’s when I began thinking, what else could I be possibly doing? And it was still in the back of my mind, maybe I will go to law school, maybe I’ll do contract law, something corporate. And that was another avenue that I did explore. But given that the initial reason why I was drawn into law was human rights, making sure people are treated fairly, and just corporate law was not something that I was excited about. Even though everyone was like, oh, you’re gonna make so much money, you’ll pay off those student loans right away. And that’s what people should do in general if they wanna do that. And then you can do what you like. I’m like, I don’t wanna be a corporate slave for 10 years, doing what I hate, helping corporations potentially suck their customers dry, or just people in general, like insurance companies and all that. And at the same time, I was walking from one class to another, it was an evening class, and I saw an ad on our campus at Berkeley, Oracle was hiring, all majors welcome. All majors, really, legal studies, working at Oracle. Challenge accepted, let’s go check it out. And it’s free pizza, so that was part of the decision-making process. So I ran to the library on the way from the class to another and printed out my resume and just attended the info session. What’s the harm? So pizza was good, left my resume, talked to some folks who were there representing Oracle, and got a call back. I didn’t really think I had the experience anyway, but everyone was a college student. I guess some people may have had retail sales experience, and I just didn’t think I had any. And then actually in LA, back before I moved to attend Berkeley, I did work at another telemarketing company for two months, Closets by Design and Closet World, you know those, everyone knows those. So I think it was a third party that was just doing the telemarketing for them, but I did that for two months. And I was grueling, but did that, and I didn’t really think to put on my resume even. But when I talked to the Oracle representative, I brought it up and I thought, oh, why don’t you put on your resume? And I was like, hey, I don’t know, I only did it for two months. And I never forget what the girl said to me, and she said, yeah, but that’s two months more than everyone else did here. Even though you didn’t consider that to be anything significant, it is. Because you were exposed to cold calling, you were exposed to how things work and setting meetings. And since then I started putting on my resume.

Manuel Martinez: And that’s pretty important there, because a lot of times we, I know I’m guilty of it, it’s diminishing something that we’ve done. We’re like, ah, it was only two months. It’s not that important until somebody else goes through and says, well, wait a minute, no, that is important.

Vika: And same thing with the telemarketing job in Ukraine. I didn’t put on my resume because I thought, who cares what I did in Ukraine? But it did matter.

Manuel Martinez: Right, it did matter. And is that something, after that experience, is that something that kind of moving forward, you, do you still kind of continue to do that? Do you still kind of take that away? And I wonder if that’s part of, again, toning down and just, hey, I don’t want to talk about what I’m doing because you’re like, oh, okay, well, it’s not that important. I don’t want to share all these great experiences. Do you think that played a role in kind of not sharing that?

VIka: So it wasn’t for that reason. It’s not about just boasting like we talked about earlier. It was more about, I didn’t think it was relevant at the time or people would not take that job seriously. But once this experience took place, then I was like, oh, actually, that just got me an interview and eventually a job at Oracle. So had I not even talked about it, not sure how my life would have turned out, honestly. Maybe I would have been a lawyer, but who knows? But yeah, I think in the, since that experience plus a few more experiences in life in general, I realized that it’s about transferable skills and being in the military also solidified that for me because people think, oh, my military experience doesn’t matter. And I talked to a lot of vets these days that I need help with resumes or they’re looking to get some help with their interviewing skills. And I talked to them and I look at their resumes like, where is, what did you do in this role? Oh yeah, I was working at this department operations, just admin stuff, it didn’t matter. Really? Did you not schedule 15 people for shifts? Did you not have to process reimbursement claims? Like all of this stuff is transferable. And I help them kind of verbalize it better so that it is seen by recruiters for whatever role they want to get, that it is relevant. It’s all about the skillset. It’s not about exactly what you did, but what kind of things you’ve learned from that and what kind of tasks you did. So I usually tell people just focus on the tasks, focus on your day-to-day responsibilities. What do you see in those responsibilities that relate to this job posting that you’re looking at that you think you might not qualify for? And then we’ll go through that exercise and it’s like, okay, 90% match.

Manuel Martinez: And then even just bouncing that off of somebody else, because I’m guilty of that where sometimes I won’t, I may not think it’s transferable or to your point, I’m like, oh, well, it’s just this, right? It’s easy. But then talking to somebody, just be like, hey, these are the skills that they’re looking for, here’s what I’ve done. And somebody else might be able to make that correlation because I’ve talked about it before. Transferable skills are one thing, but the other thing is what comes easy to you and easy because it’s something that you’ve done all the time. You’re like, oh, well, that’s just admin work because you’ve been doing that for five years and it was just part of your role. Well, yes, but somebody else who may not have the experience or doesn’t have it at the level, like, oh, I’m scheduling 15 minutes a day. Like that’s a, you know, I was–

Vika: Coordination.

Manuel Martinez: Leadership coordination, right, it’s understanding like–

Vika: Juggling people’s just everything.

Manuel Martinez: That’s amazing. And I’m glad that you’re doing that and helping people understand that, hey, it’s a transferable skill.

VIka: And I always tell them, get a mentor. Don’t wait for one to be assigned. Some jobs or companies, they usually assign you a mentor. When you start working, they’re like, okay, shadow this person, shadow that person. But what I’ve learned is don’t wait for them to do that. Not everyone will. Not every manager will be aware that they should be doing that, but you should proactively reach out to people. You see somebody good on the phone, like in sales, for example, you’re like, oh, they’re smooth and they’re closing and oh my God, how do they do that? And you just come up to them, introduce yourself, and you ask, is it okay if I just kind of follow you around for a couple hours just to see how you do things? And I think you can learn a lot more from that than from those educational videos that they make you watch. And I’ve approached people that way. I was also lucky to have mentors that approached me, and they’re like, look, looks like you’re, you know, maybe you’re struggling with this, but you’re really good at that, so let’s focus on this, I’ll help you with this piece. And that was amazing, but also I did not want to shy away from putting myself out there and seeing, do I, like, I would like that person to be my mentor because they do x, y, z really well, and that’s my weak spots. So I would say identify the weak spots where you want to improve and then find the person that embodies the knowledge in those areas. That way you can kind of tactically target what you need to get better at. And that’s not always possible with an assigned mentor, which you guys might be good at the same things and bad at the same things.

Manuel Martinez: And you never know, and I think a lot of times people might shy away from, well, they’re too busy or they’re not gonna want to help me. Making sure that you’re not limiting yourself, right? Make them tell you no, right? If you’re coming about it to your point, right, it’s like, hey, I see that they do this really well, it’s also in the way that you approach it. Hey, I really like the way that you do this, can I shadow you? Again, finding ways to get them to say yes, but also explain why you’re doing it. It’s not just, hey, will you mentor me?

Vika: Exactly, yeah, be specific about what you’d like, help with, and also compliment that person on that skill as well. I think that’s a good foundation to have a good relationship. With some of the mentors I approached or maybe was assigned back in the day, I still keep in touch with them from 2014, 2015, 2017 to this date. In fact, my former boss in the Navy who I reported to for seven years, we just had dinner in Las Vegas last week. He was here with his wife and we got together and he also helped write a letter of recommendation for my schools in the past and also for UCLA MBA, which is a program I’m starting later, well, in four weeks at this time. So keep in touch, find those mentors, and I would say also don’t only contact them when you need something, go out for coffee with them. And for me, it was kind of like, it came naturally because I liked spending time with them. I felt like even it’s just a walk to get fills in San Francisco. It sounds like no big deal, it’s just you’re walking, you’re talking about your day to day, but there’s always something I learned, always.

Manuel Martinez: Oh, that’s awesome.

Vika: And sometimes I didn’t realize until later and I was like, oh, I remember him saying that.

Manuel Martinez: No, and that’s a good point, right? It’s just, I think a lot of times people are like, well, I need to make that relationship because in the future I might need something. You might never need something and that’s not the reason to go through and establish that relationship.

Vika: And they might need your help too.

Manul: Right. Vika: It’s happned before.

Manuel Martinez: And it is really a two-way relationship, right?

Vika: Give or take all the time, yeah.

Manuel Martinez: That’s awesome.

Vika: Give and take.

Manuel Martinez: So then as you’re going through, sounds like Oracle was a sales job and then–

Vika: First one.

Manuel Martinez: The first one.

Vika: Official.

Manuel Martinez: Official one. And then you ended up doing a number of other kind of sales roles at different companies and things like that. What was, I know you mentioned at the very beginning, sales was never something that you were thinking about. You had tried all these different things, but for a good portion you were in sales. And what was it that you think made you successful in that type of role? And is the success what eventually kind of kept you there for a decent amount of time?

Vika: So I’ve done pretty much every role in, if you look at the sales career in general, like what people, what roles people start with, how they progress, typical progression. And again, that varies from company to company, but typical is you first start as a sales development rep, you take inbound calls and then you try to convert them into a meeting and then you pass on that meeting to an experienced sales rep and then they do the closing and you just keep doing meetings for a while. One to two years typically. Another version of that is business development rep, which could be a progression, but it could be in lieu of this, where you do outbounding, which means you call people, cold calls. Your research companies find the right contacts and then you hit them up and email, LinkedIn, calls, anything, right? Usually a combination of those things. And once you’ve mastered that piece, then you might progress to either inside sales, which means you start closing deals on your own, but you work sort of under one to sometimes three field reps, where they’re on a quota and then you own part of their quota. Usually you’re closing smaller deals and helping them kind of take off the volume so they can focus on the one, two, three big whales. Or you could move on to being your own rep, like selling to smaller accounts, or SMB companies, maybe in the market. And so my progression was inside sales at Oracle, which was a combination of inside sales and business development. Then I went to MuleSoft as a account development rep, which is another word for business development. Outbounding, inbounding, company was pretty new at the time, so mostly outbounding. And did that, and in between, I was deployed with the military for almost a year. So that was interesting. It was a bit of a break from my career and had to come back and reintegrate myself into that world after just living in Guantanamo Bay for 10 months or so. And after coming back to MuleSoft, I was ready for my next step, and then I moved on to a role at a different company, PagerDuty, because at the time, MuleSoft did not have a good bridge between more junior role and an actual sales rep, and the deal sizes were high, so they had a pilot program at the time, and they were still tweaking it. And I was approached by a sales recruiter, interviewed, and got a position at PagerDuty as an inset sales rep, and decided to join. It was not just about the pay bump or anything like that, it was more about more responsibility for me, which at the time at MuleSoft, unfortunately, would be another one or two years, and I was just so eager, like, keep going, keep going, right? And I wanna close my own deals, have that full control over the sales cycle, because it’s sometimes frustrating when you set the appointments, you have the commitment from the prospect to at least the interest, right? And then something happens and it doesn’t close. And anyway, so with PagerDuty, started off as an inset sales rep, and then once I got successful at that, it was probably around 200% of my number, I was promoted to SMB, and that’s when I was on my own quota for the first time, not tied to any field rep. So I was my field rep, and started with small accounts, and then moved on to mid-market in about nine months, and then another eight months to major slash enterprise.

Manuel Martinez: And as you’re going through and developing kind of as a sales rep, right? So you talked about promotional videos, doing mentorship. What are some of the things that you were doing to kind of develop those skills? I mean, I know a lot of it’s just repetition, but you can repeat terrible habits. That’s not gonna necessarily make you better. So I’m just curious, like from a, so I’ve spent a little bit of time as a sales engineer, so there are things that I learned as far as, how should you handle conversations with like C-suite or director level? They’re more worried about business than technology. I mean, the technology is important, but I’m just curious from a sales point of view, what are some of the things that you would think kind of looking back, okay, I had a pretty successful career. If I would have worked on maybe these two things earlier on, I could have progressed quicker. I could have developed this skillset faster. Like what are some of those, like one or two of those things?

Vika: I would say those things were usually different at different periods in different roles. I think the things I had to learn early on was more about discipline, just keeping myself accountable, not being phased by rejection, somebody cussing you on the phone sometimes, never call me again. And just keeping up the positive attitude, even though your day might not be going well, and maybe nothing’s going your way this week or even this month and you’re freaking out, you’re stressing. And I think a lot of people get into that mood and it’s hard to dig yourself out of it if you allow yourself to get to that point. So I would talk to some of my mentors, my peers, usually just asking like, what do you do when this happens? How do you handle it? And some of my mentors, the best ones were like, let’s go for a walk, let’s get fills. And we would go and fresh air, sunshine, just natural remedies plus a good conversation and somebody just reassuring you that it’s not that you’re not doing your job. It’s not that you’re lacking a certain skill or anything. It’s just that you have to kind of push that aside and believe in yourself, come back to your desk, do lower again, until you get a good meeting, until you reach a certain milestone where it’s gonna make you feel good about yourself again. And I think that really helped for me. Not taking rejection personally, I knew deep inside that it’s not personal. But it’s sometimes when you have a few in a row, you’re just like, ah, maybe I suck at this job, maybe I should do something else. But that was one thing. And then the other one was just being prepared for meetings. Sometimes you see cocky reps, they’re just always seeing the wing it and somehow it works. And you’re just like, oh, maybe I should do it. And then I’ll have more time for actual calls versus prep. And yeah, you might have a few lucky conversations that go your way despite no prep or maybe a lack of prep that you could have done better. But what I found is good preparation led to better conversations, led to prospects respecting you more, like seeing that you know what you’re talking about. You’re not just trying to pull words out of your butt, but you’re informed and you sort of help educate them. And that was the big thing that helped me win deals was when they would perceive you or me in that case as a trusted advisor versus just a vendor. And that was a big distinction in sales. In every role I’ve been in. And I think a lot of people understand that that’s the case but they don’t act that way. So what I’ve learned is don’t be transactional. This sale might not happen, but if you do it right, if you make sure that you come prepared, you have something new to share with the prospects, something that they didn’t know about maybe, like Challenger Sale, there’s a really cool book about that. It was like a bible at MuleSoft. We had to all read it. And we did practice exercises around that. So it was sort of getting the prospect to understand that they might not know something that you do. And that’s when you become valuable to them. And that’s when they want to engage you. They want your expertise. And I think that changed a lot for me in terms of being more successful and understanding how to prepare, what I should prepare exactly for the meeting and focusing less on like covering features, which is a lot of prospects want to cover features, but you who are a sales and engineers, these features don’t sell. What you have to do is find out what the big problem is. And it’s never something that they’ll tell you right off the bat. You have to dig for it. You have to what I call peel the onion and there’s gonna be layers of that. And you have to get to the middle of it. And that’s hard because you some like at some point, it feels like an interrogation either to you, the prospect of both of you. And it becomes uncomfortable. Like why am I asking these questions? And there’s just a yes or no answer. I’m not getting anywhere with that. And I still don’t know what the problem is. I know this superficial problem, but that’s not what’s causing them to, or not affecting their bottom line, for example, or somebody’s promotion, or maybe somebody’s job is on the line for this, like with cybersecurity, right? If you’re a CIO or CTO and you have a breach and CISO is responsible ultimately, even though the work was done by somebody else, but they’re ultimately responsible, and could be fired. So those kinds of things, like you have to pick up on that and understand the person’s motivation behind looking for a solution. What happens if they don’t buy it? What happens if they buy it from somebody else? And you help them kind of walk through the process on their own by asking questions, but you want them to draw the conclusions, not you drawing for them. Because if they’re part of that process, that discovery process, then they feel like they’re part of the decision as well. And they’re a lot more likely to engage with you and even purchase the product. And I have multiple customers say like, hey, the difference between you guys and some other vendors that we spoke into was that you took the time to listen to us. You did five calls with us. And it wasn’t just, hey, here’s the features, here’s pricing, but it was more like, you really wanted to understand what we wanted to solve for and made sure this was a fit. And yeah, just digging deeper. If you’re not getting the answer from the first three tries of getting deeper into that onion, keep peeling it, maybe step back for a little bit just so it doesn’t feel too forced, but then come back to it and maybe ask a question in a different way. And for me, as somebody whose first language was not English, the whole rephrasing and trying to come up with a different way of asking that same exact question that I still needed the answer to, that was I think the toughest part might not apply to everyone, but for me it was big. And I think that’s where I’ve learned probably the most is communication and learning how to, how to take a step back when I needed to, but also come back to what I needed to get out of the conversation, if that makes sense.

Manuel Martinez: It does, especially when you touched on kind of the relationship building and communication. Because again, maybe the way that you’re phrasing it the first time, and I would say it’s probably not just you, is maybe the way that I’m receiving it isn’t the same way, right? So understanding like, okay, maybe I have to ask this a different way. Maybe I’m not explaining myself properly, or maybe I’m not asking the right question. Maybe I’m asking this question, I’ve tried it two or three different ways, that’s not the right question. So definitely I see that, and I also see the relationship building to where you talked about like, hey, you’ve had multiple calls with you, you listen to us. That goes back to some of the other things you talked about where it’s relationship building. They see you as a partner because you’re involving them in the process, it’s not like, hey, buy this, hey, do this, hey, here’s the cool things, like you said, here’s the price. It’s really understanding. Like, you could have easily have given them that information, they might have taken it, and you could have been like, okay, thanks, see you later. But building that relationship, kind of also taking that step back and now seeing, kind of piecing this together as we go. But some of those mentors really said, hey, let’s go take a walk, right? And just kind of, it sounds like you’re doing that on your own. It’s kind of like you’re taking that mental walk, like, okay, wait a minute, hold on. Let me kind of think this through. You’re taking the emotion out of it and saying, all right, well, they’re not buying, or we’re not moving forward. They’re not answering my question. Learning how to take the emotion out, taking that step back and kind of looking at the bigger picture, maybe looking at it from a different angle. Like, these are all things that I’m kind of seeing that you’ve done over time. The relationship, hey, at multiple calls. If it doesn’t work out, that’s okay. You don’t all of a sudden stop talking to them because, well, they don’t have anything for me. Okay, well, you can still reach out every once in a while, like, even if they go with a different vendor. And I’ve noticed that the people that are successful continue to cultivate that relationship. Because a lot of times that is what sales is. Like you said, features don’t sell it. It’s the relationship and how you approach that person and the entire process.

Vika: Absolutely, I agree with that. And I think one more piece I wanted to cover before I move on from this topic is objection handling. So that’s something that I would say gets people frustrated and they leave the field of sales before they can ever succeed. It’s because, yes, the first one or two years is the worst years of your life in sales. You have no control, your pay is low, you don’t close any deals, all you do is set meetings, and you’re facing the most amount of rejection. Because when you field rep, that SDR is feeding you some of the meetings while you’re still booking your own. Not in every role, but that’s typical, that’s the typical setup. But in the beginning, A, you’re young, and I’m not talking about age, but more like young in that role, right? Like you’re early, you’re just learning. And you don’t know a lot of things just yet. You don’t know the product typically that well yet. And you just hear, no, no, no, I don’t have time. Or, no, we already have a vendor. All kinds of objections that prospects throw at you. A lot of people just take that and hang up and say, oh, okay, okay, I’ll call you back. Or, call me back in three months. And you’re like, okay, yeah, okay. But what I also had to learn was that you don’t have to just accept the answer either. Ask them a question. For example, when they tell you, call me in six months. All right, John, I’m absolutely happy to do that, but can you just help me understand what will change in six months that will make you ready to have this conversation? Not buy a solution, but have a conversation. Because we’re trying to sell a next meeting at this point, not the product yet. And then they’ll give you an answer to that. Maybe they won’t. But you just keep asking. And they’ll say, oh, yeah, well, we’ll have a new fiscal year starts at that time. So we can’t do anything before that. Well, John, let me ask you this. If the budget resets in six months, wouldn’t you want to be ready by then with all the options on the table for all your approvers? You have to do all this homework and understand which solution is the best fit for you. So by then, you actually have everything ready to go. And maybe it’s submitted early, because chances are you are competing for this same budget with other departments. Let’s help you prepare for that. All we’re talking about is a conversation. We’re not saying buy it now. I understand you don’t have the budget until six months from now. And a lot of times, you know what, you’re right. Because who wants to start that conversation as the budget opens up? So just things like that, right? Don’t take that first no. And that doesn’t just apply to sales, though. It applies to interviews, job interviews, promotion conversations with your boss, which I actually had with my boss’s boss before, because my manager told me, no, we’re not ready yet. And I said, who? Oh, well, at this company, we do promotions every, like you have to have a minimum of 18 months in this role, or 24 months in this role. And I said, why? Can you help me understand why that specific time frame? Because people are different. You might learn this job in six months. You might not learning by three years. And asking those questions, a lot of times they didn’t know the answer. It’s just something they were told. So then, if my manager was not willing to have that conversation, I would just go to my VP and be like, hey, let’s go for coffee. I’ll buy you fills. And then I would talk to him and say, hey, I know I’m just at my six month mark. I understand there is this timeline. I understand it’s been company policy, but as any decent salesperson would do, I want to ask you why. Just what is the reason for that? Wouldn’t you want somebody to be promoted into the next role and have more responsibility and bring more money for the company if they’re ready? He had nothing to say to that. Oh, it’s just how it’s been, right? But you tell me to never believe customers when they say that, right? Like, it’s not a good reason. So why can’t we have this conversation now? And the reason why I’m asking now is, even if I have to wait this timeframe, that’s fine. What I want to know is what does that next role look like? And how can I start doing those things early on before I’m even ready, right? To be actually officially promoted. So that by then I am ready. And it’s not a question about if. It’s the question of what date do we make it effective?

Manuel Martinez: And I like the way that you kind of talked about that. It’s being curious about, well, why? And not just taking the first answer. Maybe it is, maybe it’s written in policy and that really is the answer. But now you know, okay, it’s a policy that that can’t happen. It’s out of my control. But then also most of the time that’s not really how it is, right? It’s just, hey, on average, we notice that people when they’re ready to get promoted, they’ve been here for 18 months, a year, whatever that timeframe may be. But then understanding and again, continuing that conversation, continue to ask more questions. Okay, if I do have to wait for that year and it’s only been six months, what should I be doing in those next six months to get and ready for that promotion? And I think similar to when you talked about with the customer, I don’t think a lot of times we do that. I know early on in my career, I didn’t is, don’t wait until if they tell you, okay, you do have to wait a year. Why would I wait till the year to then start? Now I’ve delayed that process. Now it’s gonna be a year and three months, a new year, six months, whatever that might be. But being able to go through and ask those questions and be curious and really, even if you’re not in sales, but learning not to take no, not to take, maybe you’re not no, but not take that first answer as, hey, well, that’s law and I guess–

VIka: It still might be a no, but if you do the due diligence and you ask the right questions, you’ll either understand why no or you’ll get to yes.

Manuel Martinez: Exactly.

Vika: And I was smiling early as you were talking because yes, they had that policy until I came along. Oh really? Yes, so it was just something that they followed, right? But then once I started asking these questions, my VP was, I feel like he was both impressed and annoyed at the same time. Because I would put things on his calendar and be like, okay, it’s time for a monthly walk. Let’s catch up, see what I’ve been doing. If I got any closer to performing at that level, where I’d be ready. And once I did that, I was promoted in nine months and minimum was 12. And then for the next role, eight months. So I broke those records twice. But that’s only because I went out there and challenged the status quo. If I didn’t and I waited, by then I would have had my peers competing with me because if there’s only one role available and there’s three people competing for it, I was out of that competition. Because I did it on my own timeline.

Manuel Martinez: And I would add to that just based on things that I’ve read and people have talked to is, I would say it’s that and then it’s also, you’re becoming visible. You’re doing everything.

Vika: They know your name.

Manuel Martinez: Now they know your name, the VP, right? It wasn’t your manager. You could have these same conversations with your manager.

Vika: And I did. I did not try to skip anything, but once I realized it was probably not the right level, that’s when I moved up. I learned my chain of command in the Navy back in the day. But if you don’t get the answer that you, it’s not necessarily the answer that you want, right? Like you still might end up with the same answer from the VP or SVP or anyone else. But at least you tried. You put yourself out there. I think a lot of people would respect that. You’re definitely getting out of your comfort zone. You argument your, you have findings that you use to argument your case. You don’t just come in and say, “Hey, I feel like making more money,” or, “I feel like I’m ready,” but why? You also have to answer the why. Why do you think you’re ready? And I’ve been asked that too. Oh, really? So you’re gonna start this new role next month and you’re gonna close this much money? Well, I can’t promise you that, but here’s how I’m going to approach that. Oh, what’s gonna happen if you fail? What if you lose a deal? And I would have to give them some justification. It’s like, okay, if I lose a deal, here’s the exercise I’m gonna do with myself. And then they’re like, oh, okay. Well, this is, I think that’s something I would do as well. And maybe they don’t believe in what I say and they’ll tell me that. And be like, you know what? If this does happen, this is a better way of, might wanna cut this, I’m rambling. (both laughing) So, yeah. And the other thing about what we just talked about, objection handling, the customer or prospect. The timeline is one thing. The budget is another thing, right? But one more way that you can turn that conversation around and actually was probably the most common one for me and my peers is to turn it into an ROI. So I was an ISR, inside sales, at that time, PagerDuty and we had a customer, big online platform for placing orders, used new items similar to Amazon, but you can buy collectibles and all kinds of things. It’s four letters, the company. Probably know what it is. But so I managed that as a inside sales rep. And it was a really, it was an interesting account, but it was a bit of a risk because the downtime was really important, or I guess uptime was important to them. Having any downtime was just no. Because if that platform was down for even 10 seconds, they calculated their losses and it was in thousands and thousands of dollars. So a minute of downtime, I think cost them at least $90,000 a minute. And our platform PagerDuty was there to detect any anomalities and inform engineers on call about anything that happens. So super good fit. They’re already a customer of ours, but the small, very small footprint. Just one small team was using it, the rest of the team were not. And they were using the most basic subscription, which did not give them access to everything they really needed to do that. So I decided to approach it from a different perspective. I heard all the nos, all of them. Literally they objected and handled me. And I was just sitting there like, oh my God, what else can I, I don’t even know. But then talk to my mentor, talk to the field rep. And he was like, yeah, I’ve tried to sell to them multiple times. They’re just like, you know, in their ways. And that’s how we’ve done it. We don’t need more. But they did. And what I did was created a deck where I took snapshots of their accounts, found inefficiencies that could not be solved by what they were doing currently and how many people they got involved currently. They needed more people on the platform, so additional licenses, but also they needed a higher tier plan because some of the functionality that could have resolved the issues that they were having and prevent downtime, if not mitigate it, mitigate or prevent, right? Either way, good outcome. And I just presented that as ROI conversation. It’s not about the budget. Oh, we don’t have the budget. This team doesn’t have the budget. So they can’t buy this, even though we want them to, but they can’t. Okay, let’s sit down and bring your director of engineering. Let’s understand how much does it cost you for a minute of downtime? How much downtime did you have last year, last month? So I got those numbers from them. They were hesitant to share them at first, but I’m like, look, in order for me to have this conversation with you, please just be honest. It stays between us NDA and everything. But like, it will help me help you essentially. So they were like, you know what, you guys know this space and let’s do it, let’s see. And we found that by investing an additional $100,000 in this platform, which will give them a lot of licenses, higher tier and everything, it’s a drop in their bucket. But it would save them millions of dollars. And we could prove it with a calculator that we had for that, using their own numbers. It’s not something I made up. It’s not something I got from consulting report. We use their numbers. That’s why it stuck with them. So when we presented that to their SVP of engineering, he was mind blown. He was like, how come we didn’t buy this yesterday?

Manuel Martinez: But some of that comes back to also you being very open and transparent, right? Is, hey, it stays between us. Here’s what I’m trying to do. It’s not like, well, give me your numbers because I’m gonna try and do something on the back end. But again, it goes back to communication and establishing that relationship. I see this over and over, but it’s really saying, hey, here’s what I wanna try and do. And it’s not just trying to make a sale. It’s trying to understand the business, trying to understand what are the problems that you’re having. And I think a lot of times, at least in my experience, the people that have been successful, they understand that. They know that, yes, this is a technology. This can help solve problems. But what problems am I trying to solve? Cool, check out all these features. It can do all these things. But what is it solving? A lot of times we try to, and I’ve been guilty of this in the past as a customer, as a consumer, is early on I would say, ooh, this is cool, this is cool. But then you go back and you’re like, all right, I can implement this. I’ve seen a lot of products that get implemented and it becomes shelfware because again, this is a cool technology, it does these cool things, but it doesn’t address anything that I have. So I think that’s the answer to–

Vika: Also cool doesn’t really work when CFO asks you why the heck you need it.

Manuel Martinez: Right. (laughing)

Vika: You have to sell it internally in your own company. So part of my job was enabling my prospect to take whatever we discussed, give them all the documentation that we came up with together, and have them bring it up in their internal meeting. And when that CFO tries to challenge that, say, oh, no, we have too many apps, we don’t have the budget for it. Then they actually can argument, no, we actually do need it, look at how much money we were losing, how much we lost last month, how much we lost last year, look at all this. This solution can actually help us mitigate and prevent some of these issues so that moving forward, we don’t have those losses. What is that worth to you CFO?

Manuel Martinez: Right, and again, it’s understanding how to talk in business, right?

Vika: Exactly, yes.

Manuel Martinez: I know that we’ve touched on a lot of different things. Is there anything from a sales perspective that you still kind of wanted to address? And then the thing that I wanna talk about real quick is how you then took all of that knowledge and information from everything that you’ve done and turn that into helping from a consultancy standpoint.

Vika: Yeah, so started doing consulting kind of after, I think it was 2023, early 2023 or so, I wanted to take a break, I wanted to travel, I was working in sales for about a decade by then and when you’re in sales, there’s no such thing as vacation because your laptop comes with you on a plane to the beach, to the hotel. And at some point, I was in Hawaii with my mom, finally got that week long vacation and we never made it to a single hike because I was working half a day. And I was really frustrated, I made that choice not to leave, I had to work, I had deals on the line and this was around Christmas time too, so it’s just sales never sleeps, so you can’t really take vacation. And if you do. You’ll be working on it most likely. So I just wanted a clean several months of a sort of a sabbatical and just go anywhere I wanted to and not worry about hitting my number because quota also doesn’t get reduced when you leave. You’re sick, you still have the same quota, you’re on vacation, same quota. So unless you can squeeze all that quota into however many days or weeks you have in that month or quarter and sometimes that’s possible, sometimes not. So I wanna take time off and then as I was doing that, I was traveling, I was in Guam for like a month and other places scuba diving. And my former classmates from my university in Ukraine reached out to me as they moved to the States and they founded their company and they asked for some help with go to market strategy and starting to sell their product. So I decided to take a call with them and just catch up in general, but also see like if there was anything I can do for them. And at the time they didn’t have like a MVP yet. So the product itself was still in the development. So there was nothing to sell just yet. So I couldn’t really go all in and start selling for them. But what I could do is inform them of what to focus on, how they can approach getting the funding, what to do with parts of the website, just presenting the material in a certain way. And that’s when the consulting thing started because I was actually working for them. It was paid work, which I never really considered doing. It was just never cost my mind until somebody reached out and said, would you be open to doing that? I was like, well, you know what? Yeah, I could use some extra money while I’m traveling. And then another person reached out shortly after this was over. And I used to work with him at MuleSoft. He was an enterprise architect there. And he founded his own company and his own app. So I started working with him on his company strategy, also hourly billing for my services. And this just kind of crossed my mind at that point, oh, I could probably do it for a while like that. And if I wanted to go back to a full-time role, I could. And did that engagement, we’re still in touch, great guy. And I knew that that is helpful, that type of consultancy. It’s helpful, it’s just too narrow for me. It’s just sales, right? This is what I know. But I wanted to see sales operations and customer success, all of that sort of as part of a bigger picture. And I knew I was lacking that. I never worked in finance or legal. I interacted with them quite a bit at previous companies, helping with master services agreements or invoicing and all that stuff with customers. But I never actually knew how everything fits together. So I felt like it was a bit of a blind spot that doesn’t let me be as effective as I want it to be, because I can give advice on what I know, but then if I can’t sort of see how other parts of the business are affected, and sort of use that in my judgment, or apply those things into my decision-making process and advice subsequently, then I don’t think I would be an effective advisor when it comes to larger companies. So small companies, yes, because they wanted something specific, but then expanding that, I didn’t think I was gonna be able to do that for them. So that’s what led me to a decision to apply for an executive MBA program several months ago. And I’m actually starting school in mid-August. So we’ll get background in accounting, finance, analytics, all those things that make up the entire business. That way I can see the entire picture, complete the puzzle, so to say, and be able to strategically advise these founders, and not necessarily just a small company, but even larger companies, where maybe there’s an issue they’re trying to solve for, and while sales might be part of it, and maybe a big part of it, but then I wanna be able to evaluate the entire operation and organization to see where else gaps might be present, that way we can address them at the same time. So moving to corporate strategy, and potentially working with venture capital, private equity, and I mean, I’m keeping my options open in general in the future, but that’s just something that came to mind, and also I’m an angel investor. So I did due diligence on the companies, balance sheets, understanding their market fit, and everything that was just in the past couple years too, and that’s when it all clicked, oh, I think I wanna do that. And I had the glimpse of what it would look like, enjoyed doing those tasks, running numbers, and seeing how viable is this company, are they gonna make it? And then yeah, in conjunction with my sales experience, I think there’ll be a very interesting path in the future. That’s exciting. Just expanding on the skills I have, but also adding new skills that I think you could probably get from a job, but foundational education I think is important for that too.

Manuel Martinez: Right, and I think you’re right, establishing that foundation of general knowledge, coupled with the experience that you already have, and the experience that you’re gonna gain, I think it just seems like you’re approaching it to how do I become a better, well-rounded person? Sure, I have my specialty, but I still wanna be able to understand everything around it.

Vika: Yeah, because I think without that, I don’t wanna fake it till I make it necessarily, because it could cost a business their entire company, because yeah, a lot of founders are first-time founders, so they build this app or platform, and they understand what they’re solving for. They can’t translate that though, or they understand the code, and they know how to debug, but they can’t create a business plan, or exit strategy, all these things, so I wanna be able to come in and be able to help them with that piece, taking in everything I know, being able to conduct those discovery conversations just like I did with the customers, asking them all the questions I need the answers to, and then sitting down and thinking, what is the best outcome for them, and what kind of actions do they need to take to get to more sales, or whether it be to pivot from a product that maybe not selling, and all kinds of things, but seeing, understanding problems from various angles, different angles, I think that’s very important in order to provide quality advice for someone who is looking to up-level their business.

Manuel Martinez: Well, I thank you for everything that you’ve kinda provided as far as answering my questions and giving me a lot of good things to think about, and then a lot of good information for somebody else that might be looking, not even just in sales, but we talked about communication. One of the things that I also saw is you’re very open to different opportunities. It wasn’t just like, well, I’m gonna do just sales, or hey, the medical thing, just babysitting, open to possibilities, promoting yourself and doing a lot of things, and not taking a final answer is the answer. Now, I wanna give you the opportunity to kind of speak about anything that you kinda wanna end this on. It could be a parting thought, something that kinda looking back on your career, this is something I wish I would’ve known. Here’s a challenge that I overcame so that someone else maybe might wanna avoid that, or just kinda summarize your career, so I wanna give you the opportunity to just really talk about anything that you wanna kinda leave as a way to end this.

Vika: For me personally, growing up in Ukraine and not having the means, financial means, or the best education available, for example, and my mom working 16-hour days, I had to be independent and resilient at the time, and as a kid, I mean, I think I was 10 when she started leaving me alone in the house because she had to go to work, and I’m an only child, she’s a single mom, so we didn’t have family in town for them to look after me, to advise me, and from really early years, I had to start thinking for myself. If I have a problem, my mom is busy at work, I can’t even call her, no cell phones, and I had to call the general line and ask for somebody to go get her, and sometimes that was not possible, so if I had a crisis, teenagers always have crises, so I always had a crisis, and I had to figure things out and learn how to figure it. I made a lot of mistakes for sure, but I think that is what made me who I am today, and I know it’s sort of a cliche to say, but it is what helped me become more confident in general and be able to think on my feet, even if I didn’t know the answer, or I was afraid of something, and back in the day, I think I focused a lot on perfection and just making sure I’m absolutely ready for something before I start doing it, but then with time and experience and awesome mentors that I’ve had, I realized you just gotta do it. There are studies that were done on, specifically women not applying for jobs unless they felt like they met the entire 100% of criteria, and the same studies show that guys would apply for jobs that they barely qualify for, 30%, 50%, but they’re not waiting for that 100% to feel like, okay, now I can apply, and yeah, and they end up getting those jobs because they apply. If you don’t apply, if you don’t shoot the shot, you’re not gonna make the basket, and I think that was probably one of the bigger revelations for me, where I doubted myself for various reasons, having an accent. English also not being my first language, so sometimes I would miss certain nuances in a conversation where it would just fly over my head and I didn’t read the situation. And other things like not being able to afford certain things and having the resources to do what I wanted to do, even go to law school, for example, at the time, which yeah, I changed my mind about it, but finances was also part of that decision. Where am I gonna take $300,000? So I would say my advice, or I guess parting thought would be if you’re thinking about changing careers or even a lateral move or just going to a new company, just put yourself out there, don’t be afraid, and don’t let the inner voice tell you, “Hey, you’re not ready, you have to get this certification,” or you gotta get this many years of experience because the job posting says at least five, but you only have three and a half. Just go and do it. What’s the worst that can happen? Okay, you’ll get a rejection, but it was always a no if you didn’t do it. At least now you have a chance at a yes. So prepare, over-prepare for interviews, do mock interviews, watch YouTube, YouTube, I use YouTube for everything, just change my microwave with the help of YouTube and garage opener, all kinds of things. So go and watch those videos where people give advice on how to prep for specific jobs or specific companies, there’s so much content out there that there’s no excuse anymore. Just go in and prepare yourself. The less unexpected things that you have coming at you, the better, so with more prep, there’s gonna be a few things that you might be like, “Oh, I never even thought they would ask me that,” but if the majority of that you kind of tackled already, you practiced, you’ll do well. And if you stumble, all you gotta say is, “You know what, didn’t think about this,” or maybe I haven’t experienced the situation, or don’t have much experience in that field, but I’ll look it up and I’ll learn before I start this job. Confident answers, tell them you’ll follow up and do follow up on those things, like some people tell customers, “Oh yeah, let me find out and get back to you,” and they never do. Your credibility drops and your chances of closing a sale they really go down because you’re not trusted anymore, you’re not following through, so make sure you do follow through if you promise to look something up.

Manuel Martinez: I love that there’s a lot even just in that last little bit that I think is good information to take away, so I appreciate you taking the time to come and speak to me and share a lot of this information with others.

Vika: Yes, thank you for having me.

Manuel Martinez: And for everyone out there watching and listening, thank you so much for taking the time to kind of listen and learn from other people’s experiences. So again, my goal is to hopefully share some sort of knowledge from somebody else that maybe you hadn’t thought about or maybe you did think about it, but they gave you a way to kind of think about it in a different, you know, from a different angle or a different perspective. So with that, continue to plug in and download the knowledge, and until next time, thank you.